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Ariel Sharon warned his government would not tolerate the slightest Palestinian violation of the roadmap for peace,

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etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Czar
The Fourth Geneva Convention on Rules of War, that bans the resettlement by an occupying power of its own civilians on territory under its military control.
Exactly what countries land is Israel occupying?
 

Siwy

Senior member
Sep 13, 2002
556
0
0
all those proposals were bullsh!t and pure lip service. Until the arabs are serious about peace with israel, they shouldn't talk BS.
That is one hollow statement. I can say the same about the Jews...and so we will go in circles.

As for Abbas, he has very little power to make such a promise. in fact, it was the imprisoned barghouti who made the current ceasefire viable.
The truth is that Abbas has created a potential for peace that has not existed in a long time, I think we should all hope that it pans out. Lately though, it seems like the peace plan is being undermined by Sharon and Israel's government by constructing a barrier or rejecting Palestinian proposal for a ?permanent truce".
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,136
37
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Originally posted by: Siwy
all those proposals were bullsh!t and pure lip service. Until the arabs are serious about peace with israel, they shouldn't talk BS.
That is one hollow statement. I can say the same about the Jews...and so we will go in circles.

As for Abbas, he has very little power to make such a promise. in fact, it was the imprisoned barghouti who made the current ceasefire viable.
The truth is that Abbas has created a potential for peace that has not existed in a long time, I think we should all hope that it pans out. Lately though, it seems like the peace plan is being undermined by Sharon and Israel's government by constructing a barrier or rejecting Palestinian proposal for a ?permanent truce".
like I said, barghouti was the person whom the terrorist organizations listened to bring about the current ceasefire. It wasn't abbas. The only reason why abbas is there is because we support him. Until the palestinians have a leader that speaks for all, then this peace process won't go anywhere. Abbas is only nominally in charge.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
0
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Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Siwy
all those proposals were bullsh!t and pure lip service. Until the arabs are serious about peace with israel, they shouldn't talk BS.
That is one hollow statement. I can say the same about the Jews...and so we will go in circles.

As for Abbas, he has very little power to make such a promise. in fact, it was the imprisoned barghouti who made the current ceasefire viable.
The truth is that Abbas has created a potential for peace that has not existed in a long time, I think we should all hope that it pans out. Lately though, it seems like the peace plan is being undermined by Sharon and Israel's government by constructing a barrier or rejecting Palestinian proposal for a ?permanent truce".
like I said, barghouti was the person whom the terrorist organizations listened to bring about the current ceasefire. It wasn't abbas. The only reason why abbas is there is because we support him. Until the palestinians have a leader that speaks for all, then this peace process won't go anywhere. Abbas is only nominally in charge.
Actually Barghouti was only instrumental in bringing the Tanzim, and Al Aqsa and with them the younger elements of Fatah along. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the smaller groups were heavily pressured by Abbas, Egypt, the Syrians, and the Iranians to agree. Once Hamas and Islamic Jihad came to the conclusion that a cease fire was in thier tactical if not strategic interests, the others fell in line. Abbas did pull a lot of strings and do a lot of diplomacy to bring this to fruition. Don't underestimate that.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
0
76
You should also remember that along with Abbas comes Dahlan, and even the Israelis agree (Both the SB, and the IDF) that Dahlan and Abbas are taking major steps to reform and reconstitute the PA security forces. It was a huge mistake to destory the PA security forces as it by default increased the power of the various militant groups. It even got groups such as Al Aqsa and Hamas to WORK TOGETHER, a previously unheard of phenomenon.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,868
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Originally posted by: Siwy
kinda funny how israel is held up to such lofty standards by some, that keep their mouths shut about the rest of the foul countries surrounding it. its the jews... its always the jewswomen aren't even allowed to drive in saudi arabia for f*cks sake. oh the international outrage is deafening... oh wait.. it isn't all of europe and the world should put their money where their mouths are and stop buying oil and selling techology/equipment nuclear reactors to these countries. oh wait, thats never going to happen


You are missing one important detail. USA is openly supporting Israel conceptually and financially. When you take that under consideration there is no wonder why a lot of people, especially Americans who are opposed to racial laws in Israel, are upset about it. No one hides the fact that many of the Arab countries, that you are referring to, are governed by fallacious individuals who establish unjust laws. But a lot of media, as well as US administration, openly lie about Israel's democratic shortcomings.

your missing more then one important detail, the USA is openly supporting egypt too. all the countries in that area have worse laws then israel. there was a reason why this happened, the arabs didn't want peace and had to be kept down through money and deterence. lesser of two evils? perhaps. israel just pales in comparison to its arab neighbors. but europe concentrates on israeli shortcomings while turning a blind eye to the arabs and actively support their regiems. no clean hands. and biased media? :p don't look too closely at those who supply your oil eh:p

and what media lies about israel? the media you think is controlled by the jews? lol:)







don't forget france was the one who had billions of dollars of transactions with saddam


That is a silly argument we constantly keep hearing from the war supporters. Using your ideology (remember your ideology not mine), let me ask you which is better? Starting a war for profit or keeping peace for profit?

nope. its called being complicit in the crimes of the regiem you are supporting for profit under the guise of peace. quite literally, peace at any price. i'm simply saying they have no high horse to stand on.
 

Siwy

Senior member
Sep 13, 2002
556
0
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your missing more then one important detail, the USA is openly supporting egypt too. all the countries in that area have worse laws then israel. there was a reason why this happened, the arabs didn't want peace and had to be kept down through money and deterence. lesser of two evils? perhaps. israel just pales in comparison to its arab neighbors. but europe concentrates on israeli shortcomings while turning a blind eye to the arabs and actively support their regiems. no clean hands. and biased media? don't look too closely at those who supply your oil eh
You did not get what I said. No one is arguing that there are countries that have worse laws then Israel, I agree with it 100%. And that is why you do not hear many people arguing about Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Syria since we basically agree that those countries are bad. Israel on the other hand is projected as this great "democracy" in the middle easy, which is not true, and that is why a lot of people speak out against it more than other countries in the region.
Also, Egypt or Syria or other countries in the region do not try to justify illegal occupation and oppression of innocent people. If other countries in the middle east started building barriers and settlements outside of their own borders you can be sure that there would be an outcry against it from around the world.
I hope that answers your questions.

and what media lies about israel?
The best example of media bias comes from the lack of media coverage of bad acts done by Israel. I'm not sure if you read or watch any news other than American news, but I do, and I can see a contrast between the two. I've never heard Israel being referred to as being racist on CNN or FOX, even though it is true. I've never heard Israel being criticized for still using torture or not providing financial assistance to non-Jewish students, or not providing non-Jewish areas in Israel equal financial government spending....and the list goes on.

the media you think is controlled by the jews? lol
Putting words in my mouth won't get you anywhere, so lets not do that.

nope. its called being complicit in the crimes of the regiem you are supporting for profit under the guise of peace. quite literally, peace at any price. i'm simply saying they have no high horse to stand on.
Nope. It was USA who wanted war at any price, in order to profit from it, under the guise of (non existent) WMD. Quite literally, war at any price.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Also, Egypt or Syria or other countries in the region do not try to justify illegal occupation and oppression of innocent people.
Really? Then why is Syria occupying Lebanon? Why don't you complain about that occupation?
 

Siwy

Senior member
Sep 13, 2002
556
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Really? Then why is Syria occupying Lebanon? Why don't you complain about that occupation?
My bad, it slipped my mind. Anyway, I definitely do not try to justify Syria occupying Lebanon. Like I said above Syria is "bad" and I never said otherwise.
But I know your stance on the issue, from the other threads that you abandoned, that since other countries in the Middle East have discriminatory laws, it is ok for Israel to have them as well. :confused:
 

Smaug

Senior member
Jul 16, 2002
276
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I just want to go back to the lobbyist thing for a moment.
AIPAC is the second most powerful group in washington behind the NRA, but I don't think thats the story.
The question is why the arabs, with FAR MORE money to sink into a group, have been so completely ineffectual in lobbying for the palestinians. They have effectively shaped oil policy, but not the policy towards the palestinians. Why? It's in their best interest to promote conflict, to radicalize the common man against something besides the tyrannical goverment. You know why all the palestinian groups want a cease fire, Saudi Arabia is cutting back funding.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Siwy
Really? Then why is Syria occupying Lebanon? Why don't you complain about that occupation?
My bad, it slipped my mind. Anyway, I definitely do not try to justify Syria occupying Lebanon. Like I said above Syria is "bad" and I never said otherwise.
But I know your stance on the issue, from the other threads that you abandoned, that since other countries in the Middle East have discriminatory laws, it is ok for Israel to have them as well. :confused:
No you have it wrong again. My stance is why do you only complain about the nation there that is the most advanced in human rights and democracy and ignore all of the ones with worse records? You won't ignore for a second the fact that Israel has settlements in the disputed land yet you can so conveniently ignore that Syria has occupied Lebanon for so many years.

Don't you think anything can be done about the rights of the Arabs in those countries? Why do you only complain about how the Jews treat Arabs and not about how the Arabs treat Arabs?
 

Siwy

Senior member
Sep 13, 2002
556
0
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No you have it wrong again.
I do have it right. Whenever someone criticises Israel the first excuse you dish out is that other countries are the same or worse, ignoring the fact that Israel is actually doing something wrong. That's the impression I got and so did other people from that other thread. You totally ignore the problems in Israel and point your finger at others. I can get your quotes that prove my point if you have memory lapses.

You won't ignore for a second the fact that Israel has settlements in the disputed land yet you can so conveniently ignore that Syria has occupied Lebanon for so many years. My stance is why do you only complain about the nation there that is the most advanced in human rights and democracy and ignore all of the ones with worse records?
I said that Syria is bad, and I don't intend to say otherwise until they change their current government. I definitely do not try to divert the argument towards Israel when someone is criticising Syria, like you divert the argument towards Syria when someone is criticising Israel.

Don't you think anything can be done about the rights of the Arabs in those countries?
Of course I do, I think there can be a lot done.

Why do you only complain about how the Jews treat Arabs and not about how the Arabs treat Arabs?
Don't assume that I complain about the Jews, I've got Jews in my family so you can stick your inaccurate assumptions.....you know where...
I complain about Israeli Government which tries to show itself as a great democracy in the Middle East, while it is not. Simple as that. I will complain how badly some Arabs treat other Arabs when someone says differently.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
I've been through this enough to know that arguing with someone like you is futile. You will go on complaing about Israel for your own reasons while only acknowledging that the Arab countries are far worse when your nose is rubbed in it.

I do have two questions.

You think there is a lot that can be done to improve the plight of the Arab countries. What can be done and why isn't it being done?

I'm curious to see how you will spin it so it is Israel's or the US' fault also.

 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,136
37
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Originally posted by: tnitsuj
You should also remember that along with Abbas comes Dahlan, and even the Israelis agree (Both the SB, and the IDF) that Dahlan and Abbas are taking major steps to reform and reconstitute the PA security forces. It was a huge mistake to destory the PA security forces as it by default increased the power of the various militant groups. It even got groups such as Al Aqsa and Hamas to WORK TOGETHER, a previously unheard of phenomenon.
you're proving my point. there are too many "representatives" on the Palestinian side. There should only be one leader that talks for all. All these different factions makes it hard for israel to decide who to kill and who should live and represent.
 

FacelessNobody

Senior member
Dec 13, 2002
314
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you're proving my point. there are too many "representatives" on the Palestinian side. There should only be one leader that talks for all. All these different factions makes it hard for israel to decide who to kill and who should live and represent.
Dear God, Dari, are you the reincarnated and retarded King George III? Who here wants one person to speak for everyone? Who here wants a static, absolutist government? Let's vote on that. Oh, wait, we do that every two years. I thought right-wingers were for American ideals like democracy and autonomy. Supporting an apartheid state is an anti-American thing to do, is it not? It certainly is, just like supporting Palestinian fundamentalist hard-liners is. Both sides' religions teach that you reap what you sow, and they deserve the pain they cause each other. Fvck Israel and fvck Palestine--neither side deserves a dollar from us unless I wiped my ass with it first.
 

Siwy

Senior member
Sep 13, 2002
556
0
0
I've been through this enough to know that arguing with someone like you is futile.
The funniest thing, I was thinking the same thing about you...

You will go on complaing about Israel for your own reasons while only acknowledging that the Arab countries are far worse when your nose is rubbed in it.
Yes, I complain about Israel, usually though as a reply to someone who tries to hide or disregard it's discriminatory laws. Someone like you, with his own agendas for protecting unjust countries for reasons that baffle me. No matter how you want to spin it, I don't try to hide the fact that Syria is bad. Remember this thread is about Sharon and the piece plan, and you come in here and try to diverge the attention to other problematic countries in the region....your usual pathetic attempt at changing the subject at hand.

I do have two questions.
You think there is a lot that can be done to improve the plight of the Arab countries. What can be done and why isn't it being done?
I'm curious to see how you will spin it so it is Israel's or the US' fault also.
That is not the topic of this thread, If you want to talk about the other countries, start another thread and I will gladly join in. We can talk about and criticise any other country you want...we will have a hoot!
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
I am Jewish, and I don't think the US is doing Israel any favors by not cutting off aid to force a peaceful solution.
Israel is currently an apartheid state. They basically want to retain control of west bank for security purposes, but they don't want to give citizenship rights to Palestinians for fear of losing Israel's Jewish majority status. They want to have it both ways, West Bank is part of Israel, yet those living in West Bank are not Israelis. This can't go on in perpetuity. At some point, Israel will have to let the Palestinan areas go in order to keep the Jewish majority.
Oh you traitor, even a liberal Jew needs to relize Jews might not survive without draconian measures!!! :D

I think you would like Ira Chernus writtings:
Link
 

Vernor

Senior member
Sep 9, 2001
875
0
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Don't assume that I complain about the Jews, I've got Jews in my family so you can stick your inaccurate assumptions.....you know where...
I complain about Israeli Government which tries to show itself as a great democracy in the Middle East, while it is not. Simple as that. I will complain how badly some Arabs treat other Arabs when someone says differently.

Israel is a succesfull modern democracy.

Light years ahead of any of its surrounding hostile neighbors.



 

Vernor

Senior member
Sep 9, 2001
875
0
0
The occupation is illegal. You're not rewarding terrorists, you're complying with international law, something Israel is above thanks to the US.
1.Self-defense makes presence in those areas 100% legitimate. See allied occupation of Japan, Germany.
And this case, there has never been a Palestine.

2.Those areas are _disputed_ territories, whose final status is yet to be determined.
See UNSC 242 about secure and recognized boundaries.

3. The Arab-Jewish conflict did not commence in 1967. The notion that the Arab goal of destroying Israel would suddendly vanish if Israel would withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza- is simply laughable.

The only thing such a unilateral withdrawal would do is to strengten the militant Jihadists and assorted rejectionists, and produce a new, much deadlier round of violence, that would make anything that has happened so far look like child's play.

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Siwy
I've been through this enough to know that arguing with someone like you is futile.
The funniest thing, I was thinking the same thing about you...

You will go on complaing about Israel for your own reasons while only acknowledging that the Arab countries are far worse when your nose is rubbed in it.
Yes, I complain about Israel, usually though as a reply to someone who tries to hide or disregard it's discriminatory laws. Someone like you, with his own agendas for protecting unjust countries for reasons that baffle me. No matter how you want to spin it, I don't try to hide the fact that Syria is bad. Remember this thread is about Sharon and the piece plan, and you come in here and try to diverge the attention to other problematic countries in the region....your usual pathetic attempt at changing the subject at hand.

I do have two questions.
You think there is a lot that can be done to improve the plight of the Arab countries. What can be done and why isn't it being done?
I'm curious to see how you will spin it so it is Israel's or the US' fault also.
That is not the topic of this thread, If you want to talk about the other countries, start another thread and I will gladly join in. We can talk about and criticise any other country you want...we will have a hoot!
Of course you were thinking the same thing.


Yes, you only complain about Israel. You have bought into the Arab leaders propaganda just like most of the Arabs. They blame Israel for all of the problems of the Middle East to deflect criticism of their own failed policies and just like them whenever the subject is brought up you want to deflect the cricticism back onto Israel.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,136
37
91
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
You should also remember that along with Abbas comes Dahlan, and even the Israelis agree (Both the SB, and the IDF) that Dahlan and Abbas are taking major steps to reform and reconstitute the PA security forces. It was a huge mistake to destory the PA security forces as it by default increased the power of the various militant groups. It even got groups such as Al Aqsa and Hamas to WORK TOGETHER, a previously unheard of phenomenon.
you're proving my point. there are too many "representatives" on the Palestinian side. There should only be one leader that talks for all. All these different factions makes it hard for israel to decide who to kill and who should live and represent.
WTF on God's green earth are you talking about? Ever heard of representative gov't. There may be elections, but in the end on person represents the populace. It is the same in all democracies, including israel's. One person represents the entire country when dealing with the palestinians. Having many factions makes it difficult to have dialogue. The arabs need to consolidate power into one hand so that he/she can be the rep for Palestine. Otherwise, all these talks will lead to nowhere.
 

Siwy

Senior member
Sep 13, 2002
556
0
0
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: Siwy
I've been through this enough to know that arguing with someone like you is futile.
The funniest thing, I was thinking the same thing about you...

You will go on complaing about Israel for your own reasons while only acknowledging that the Arab countries are far worse when your nose is rubbed in it.
Yes, I complain about Israel, usually though as a reply to someone who tries to hide or disregard it's discriminatory laws. Someone like you, with his own agendas for protecting unjust countries for reasons that baffle me. No matter how you want to spin it, I don't try to hide the fact that Syria is bad. Remember this thread is about Sharon and the piece plan, and you come in here and try to diverge the attention to other problematic countries in the region....your usual pathetic attempt at changing the subject at hand.

I do have two questions.
You think there is a lot that can be done to improve the plight of the Arab countries. What can be done and why isn't it being done?
I'm curious to see how you will spin it so it is Israel's or the US' fault also.
That is not the topic of this thread, If you want to talk about the other countries, start another thread and I will gladly join in. We can talk about and criticise any other country you want...we will have a hoot!

Of course you were thinking the same thing.


Yes, you only complain about Israel. You have bought into the Arab leaders propaganda just like most of the Arabs. They blame Israel for all of the problems of the Middle East to deflect criticism of their own failed policies and just like them whenever the subject is brought up you want to deflect the cricticism back onto Israel.

Are you seriously implying that I blame Israel for all of the problems of the Middle East? Show me a quote where I said it or even suggested it, and I will surely admit to being wrong, otherwise ah heck off. Your baseless accusations and assumptions are starting to get annoying.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Siwy
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: Siwy
I've been through this enough to know that arguing with someone like you is futile.
The funniest thing, I was thinking the same thing about you...

You will go on complaing about Israel for your own reasons while only acknowledging that the Arab countries are far worse when your nose is rubbed in it.
Yes, I complain about Israel, usually though as a reply to someone who tries to hide or disregard it's discriminatory laws. Someone like you, with his own agendas for protecting unjust countries for reasons that baffle me. No matter how you want to spin it, I don't try to hide the fact that Syria is bad. Remember this thread is about Sharon and the piece plan, and you come in here and try to diverge the attention to other problematic countries in the region....your usual pathetic attempt at changing the subject at hand.

I do have two questions.
You think there is a lot that can be done to improve the plight of the Arab countries. What can be done and why isn't it being done?
I'm curious to see how you will spin it so it is Israel's or the US' fault also.
That is not the topic of this thread, If you want to talk about the other countries, start another thread and I will gladly join in. We can talk about and criticise any other country you want...we will have a hoot!

Of course you were thinking the same thing.


Yes, you only complain about Israel. You have bought into the Arab leaders propaganda just like most of the Arabs. They blame Israel for all of the problems of the Middle East to deflect criticism of their own failed policies and just like them whenever the subject is brought up you want to deflect the cricticism back onto Israel.

Are you seriously implying that I blame Israel for all of the problems of the Middle East? Show me a quote where I said it or even suggested it, and I will surely admit to being wrong, otherwise ah heck off. Your baseless accusations and assumptions are starting to get annoying.
Would you care to show me the threads where you complained about any other country in the Middle East and their poor human rights record. Any thread in this forum with the exception of this one since you have made such a big show of saying Syria is bad for occupying Lebanon since and only since I brought it up.

 

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