Argument: Military Worship Hurts U.S. Democracy

[Perknose]

I found this FP opinion article a thoughtful and detailed look at this phenomenon. It's not that long. I invite you to read it all before you reflexively comment.

"Military operational experience is unique, but it is not all-knowing.Military operational experience is unique, but it is not all-knowing. Like all types of expertise—including intelligence, development, and diplomacy—it, too, is riddled with biases and “blind spots,” as the scholars Loren DeJonge Schulman and Amy Schafer recently warned."

[...]

"Although combat experience cannot easily be replicated, that does not mean judgment cannot be developed off the battlefield or that civilians are not competent to question operational decisions. Indeed, operational judgement and critical thinking may also be developed in the classroom, as demonstrated during the interwar period at professional military education institutions, where students learned from professors such as Dwight D. Eisenhower and George Marshall—which contributed to the overwhelming U.S. success in World War II.

Moreover, broad strategic judgment must rely on more than just operational matters. The containment framework that contributed to America’s success in the Cold War was a comprehensive strategy incorporating military, economic, and diplomatic lines of effort—and was conceived by George Kennan, a nonveteran civilian."

 

[FIVR]

^Found the anti-American.


How much did Putin pay you to post this?

 

[Perknose]

^Found the anti-American.


How much did Putin pay you to post this?

He said you'd be by with that big bag of rubles shortly, comrade.

 

[FIVR]

He said you'd be by with that big bag of rubles shortly, comrade.

I cannot imagine a more anti-american sentiment than suggesting that chasing ghosts through the jungle and killing grandmothers is not totally irreplaceable experience that applies to literally any field of employment on earth, especially politics.


I mean look at John McCain - He napalmed children for years and turned out to be the most honorable and great man to have ever sat in the senate. It was great experience for him.


You just don't understand what great experience combat is because you're a civilian.

 

[BoomerD]

I cannot imagine a more anti-american sentiment than suggesting that chasing ghosts through the jungle and killing grandmothers is not totally irreplaceable experience that applies to literally any field of employment on earth, especially politics.


I mean look at John McCain - He napalmed children for years and turned out to be the most honorable and great man to have ever sat in the senate. It was great experience for him.


You just don't understand what great experience combat is because you're a civilian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSwUyu-Lr1Y

Shooting wimmenz and kids is easy...you just don't lead them as much...

 

[Perknose]

I cannot imagine a more anti-american sentiment than suggesting that chasing ghosts through the jungle and killing grandmothers is not totally irreplaceable experience that applies to literally any field of employment on earth, especially politics.


I mean look at John McCain - He napalmed children for years and turned out to be the most honorable and great man to have ever sat in the senate. It was great experience for him.


You just don't understand what great experience combat is because you're a civilian.

Sorry, but you and I are not exactly on the same page. I have had my serious, even fundamental political differences with the late Senator . . . but I will never take "big picture" pot shots at what he personally sacrificed.

In the crucible of the Hanoi Hilton, Sen. McCain demonstrated extraordinary courage and true personal honor.

 

[Commodus]

I can't help but think that the US does have an excessive reverence for the military in the US, both in terms of funding (though that's partly due to the military-industrial complex) and treating it as a sacrosanct part of American society that can never make a mistake or have too many resources. Visit other countries and you'll notice the distinct lack of military worship -- not that they don't revere their heroes, they just don't fetishize their armed forces the way the US does.

The sad part is realizing how much better quality of life could be in the States if even a third of the budget went toward, say, health care or education.

 

[fskimospy]

Sorry, but you and I are not exactly on the same page. I have had my serious, even fundamental political differences with the late Senator . . . but I will never take "big picture" pot shots at what he personally sacrificed.

In the crucible of the Hanoi Hilton, Sen. McCain demonstrated extraordinary courage and true personal honor.

I very much agree with you on all counts. People who have greatly sacrificed for our country deserve our respect and admiration. That being said, we grant the military a very unhealthy amount of deference. Criticism of the military is not just okay, it is actively healthy as no institution should be above it. I for one am long sick of the weird cult of the military our country has.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Well, yeah

 

[hal2kilo]

I very much agree with you on all counts. People who have greatly sacrificed for our country deserve our respect and admiration. That being said, we grant the military a very unhealthy amount of deference. Criticism of the military is not just okay, it is actively healthy as no institution should be above it. I for one am long sick of the weird cult of the military our country has.

Glorification of hero's is also a problem. I always think of Paddy Chayefsky's Americanisation of Emily when it comes to making all these war memorials.

 

[interchange]

I cannot imagine a more anti-american sentiment than suggesting that chasing ghosts through the jungle and killing grandmothers is not totally irreplaceable experience that applies to literally any field of employment on earth, especially politics.


I mean look at John McCain - He napalmed children for years and turned out to be the most honorable and great man to have ever sat in the senate. It was great experience for him.


You just don't understand what great experience combat is because you're a civilian.

The premise of their study is that Americans have an unhealthy tendency to idealize the value of military experience leading to two problems: 1. lack of appreciation for potential biases or blind spots in the military assessments and 2. devaluing of potential contributions from civilians to military assessments.

The above premise does not lead to a conclusion that combat experience is replaceable, nor does it lead to a conclusion that military assessments are not generally the best assessments. What it is pointing out is that our idealization of its value is causing us to limit our critical thinking capacity.

I think it's possible as a society, and it would be my goal, to increase our recognition of the real value of military experience and enhance its value through engagement in critical thinking.

 

[dphantom]

Sorry, but you and I are not exactly on the same page. I have had my serious, even fundamental political differences with the late Senator . . . but I will never take "big picture" pot shots at what he personally sacrificed.

In the crucible of the Hanoi Hilton, Sen. McCain demonstrated extraordinary courage and true personal honor.

well said

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

^Found the anti-American.


How much did Putin pay you to post this?

Unfortunately, you have broken the Poe's Law meter in the past so no one knows what the hell you mean when you say "good morning".

 

[Blackjack200]

I think it's possible as a society, and it would be my goal, to increase our recognition of the real value of military experience and enhance its value through engagement in critical thinking.

The real value of sitting in a chair for 12 hours piloting a remotely controlled aircraft to drop bombs on civilians.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

What it is pointing out is that our idealization of its value is causing us to limit our critical thinking capacity.

That statement constitutes a large portion of our problems as citizens in the US and with humans on a planet-wide scale.

"It" can be replaced by any cult of personality or "ism". Critical thinking is secondary to the primary need to be inherently correct by selectively interpreting reality to create an illusion. "Truth" is not truth makes some sense in the case of belief requiring what truth must be.

As a species we're poor at critical thinking.

 

[Genx87]

I can't help but think that the US does have an excessive reverence for the military in the US, both in terms of funding (though that's partly due to the military-industrial complex) and treating it as a sacrosanct part of American society that can never make a mistake or have too many resources. Visit other countries and you'll notice the distinct lack of military worship -- not that they don't revere their heroes, they just don't fetishize their armed forces the way the US does.

The sad part is realizing how much better quality of life could be in the States if even a third of the budget went toward, say, health care or education.

Just look at the reaction of the avg trog in this country to NFL players kneeling during the anthem at a football game. It is like the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor all over again. Meanwhile not a peep about our foreign policy killing over a million people in the last 15 years. We have the same problem with cops. In general people in this country seem to bow to authority. Look upto it and attack anybody who really questions it.

 

[Maxima1]

I think it's possible our government could be better served if there weren't so many prior military running for office. Too many people like Duncan Hunter take advantage of the glorification of military service.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The real value of sitting in a chair for 12 hours piloting a remotely controlled aircraft to drop bombs on civilians.

Thanks for playing!

For the adults, it is a sad fact that our species is insufficiently advanced from our ancestors of 60k ago and earlier. We collectively demonstrate that we need leaders no matter how corrupt they may be and will do whatever it takes for the tribe to win. Tribes prize their warriors because they prevent those of "not us" from killing us or perhaps worse and yes there is worse.

But we don't really praise our warriors as much as the idea of them. We do provide some services to them of course and I'd argue that there's some merit for preferential treatment due to the simple fact that we subject them to situations and conditions that leave scars that are sometimes beyond understanding.

However as always context matters. In terms of immediate military objectives they are the ones to go with.

But remember what our military is really for and that is to carry out political objectives created by politicians. Be it Hillary, Obama, Trump, Bush, whoever, they let slip the dogs of war and if people are honest it is they who are responsible for what happens and our ignorance gives them that power to act as they will once power is achieved.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think it's possible our government could be better served if there weren't so many prior military running for office. Too many people like Duncan Hunter take advantage of the glorification of military service.

Trump was never in the military and look where that got us. What is of critical import is the ability to expand beyond what one used to be in life before public service. That's a ponderous undertaking.

 

[Gryz]

For the adults, it is a sad fact that our species is insufficiently advanced from our ancestors of 60k ago and earlier.

Our species ?
Don't forget that you are talking about Americans here.
Please don't blame the rest of the world for the stupidity of US citizens.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Our species ?
Don't forget that you are talking about Americans here.
Please don't blame the rest of the world for the stupidity of US citizens.

Where are you from?

 

[Blackjack200]

Our species ?
Don't forget that you are talking about Americans here.
Please don't blame the rest of the world for the stupidity of US citizens.

He's a fucking half wit. Look at his prose, reads like an 8th grader trying to meet a minimum word requirement.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

He's a fucking half wit. Look at his prose, reads like an 8th grader trying to meet a minimum word requirement.

So tell us about how your family has no right to defend itself again? That was a good one. Then in this thread you responded to another poster's comment with 12 hours and killing civilians as some kind thing we see as good.

Child, when will your mother ever let you out of the basement?

 

[Blackjack200]

So tell us about how your family has no right to defend itself again? That was a good one.

Haha, still trying to crack that nut? I have to take some responsibility for that, I honestly had no idea that I was talking to such a stubborn imbecile.

Then in this thread you responded to another poster's comment with 12 hours and killing civilians as some kind thing we see as good.

Child, when will your mother ever let you out of the basement?

Yeah, that's me, just chilling in my mom's basement. Still rolling with that James Comey avatar, huh? Imagine how much cerebral damage you'd have to suffer to idolize that fucking freak.

 

[FIVR]

Sorry, but you and I are not exactly on the same page. I have had my serious, even fundamental political differences with the late Senator . . . but I will never take "big picture" pot shots at what he personally sacrificed.

In the crucible of the Hanoi Hilton, Sen. McCain demonstrated extraordinary courage and true personal honor.

John McCain came from a well-off family and could've done whatever he wanted in life. He chose his profession to be that of a slaughterer. He even went so far as to purposefully pick out the one branch of the military where he would have the highest possible chance of killing other human beings, the US Marines. Then, he decided to take a position within that branch that offered him the most safety: A pilot.


He then proceeded to immolate civilians with napalm, all from the safety of his cockpit several thousand feet above them, where they would have little to no chance of fighting back. That is NOT what I would call a "hero" or somebody who underwent "hardships".


Yes, he was imprisoned... but he deserved to be imprisoned for perpetrating the slaughter that he did. He was lucky he wasn't executed on the spot.

The ONLY 2 things John McCain ever did that deserved respect were: 1) Refused to be returned to the US early and 2) Voting down Trump's healthcare bill.

Those two things do not erase the slaughter he perpetrated upon the Vietnamese people, nor the slaughter he later helped perpetrate upon Iraq, nor the terrible policies he forced upon his own fellow citizens. John McCain did more damage to the US and the world than almost any other politician in the history of the US. He deserved to get cancer and I'm glad he is dead.