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Are you a NeoCon? : The POLL

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
We've debated this in the thread, I was just curious to actually see the raw data in this forum. If some of you NeoCons care to outline why you decide to lean by this philosophy, it should make for good debate. I know this will probably devolve into a flame fest but lets try to be objective for a little while.

If you choose one of the last two answers, try to outline what it is you agree/disagree with it. If you pick one of the first too, say why and try to give a convincing arguement.
 
I'm not one, so anything I say will be ruled as leftist propaganda. I'll leave it to a true NeoCon to give his/her interpretation of what it means to be a true NC.
 
Originally posted by: alchemize
Maybe you should define what a Neocon is. Since few buy into Moonbeams definition.

From what I read - most of it appears to be what many neocon advocates are projecting. I'd like to see the self-confessed neocon definition of neocon policies, point by point, as laid out moonbeam style.

Cheers,

Andy
 
Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Andy-
That's what I'm trying to get at too. I saw a really good documentary on the BBC on NCs, scary, scary stuff.

Hi,

Didn't see that. It's a pity that you can't quote the BBC as a source around here without it being lambasted. I used to think it was due to the fact that there had been some complaints levelled at it. Some from the public, some from its own employees. Now, from looking here lately having taken a break - I find that a lot of people (I'll let you decide on their belief/allegiance/agenda 😉) have taken just about every source critical of any aspect of US policy towards Iraq/UN/Human rights/etc and declared in "biased", "unjust" or "based on an anti-US agenda". When I hear such blanket belief it unsettles my view on anyone's allegedly reasoned arguements.

Anyway, I'm side tracking! I'll look up newamericancentury.org as I *think* I remember such a list being shown there.

Cheers,

Andy
 
Here is the "Statement of Principles". I won't paraphrase everything, just the summary and one particular phrase. You need to read all of it to understand the complete context.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.

and

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

? we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;


? we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;


? we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;


? we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

How does this compare with moony's analysis?

Cheers,

Andy
 
What the Heck Is a Neocon?

by Max Boot
Wall Street Journal
December 30, 2002

I have been called many names in my career -- few of them printable -- but the most mystifying has to be "neocon." I suppose I get labeled thus because I am associated, in a small way, with the Weekly Standard, which is known as a redoubt of "neoconservatism."

But what the heck is a neocon anyway in 2003? A friend of mine suggests it means the kind of right-winger a liberal wouldn't be embarrassed to have over for cocktails. That's as good a definition as any, since the term has clearly come unmoored from its original meaning.

'Mugged by Reality'

The original neocons were a band of liberal intellectuals who rebelled against the Democratic Party's leftward drift on defense issues in the 1970s. At first the neocons clustered around Sen. Henry "Scoop" Jackson, a Democrat, but then they aligned themselves with Ronald Reagan and the Republicans, who promised to confront Soviet expansionism. The neocons, in the famous formulation of one of their leaders, Irving Kristol, were "liberals mugged by reality."

Well, I haven't been mugged lately. I haven't even been accosted. I like to think I've been in touch with reality from day one, since I've never been a Trotskyite, a Maoist or even a Democrat. There's no "neo" in my conservatism. I don't deserve much credit for this, I might add, since I grew up in the 1980s, when conservatism was cool. Many of the original neocons, by contrast, grew up in the days when Republicans were derided as "the stupid party." Some of them remain registered Democrats. But I've always identified with the Grand Old Party. The same might be said of the other Standard-bearers, even those (like Bill Kristol and John Podhoretz) who are the offspring of famous neocons. They, too, have been right from the start.

So why do I, and others of my ilk, get tagged as "neocons"? Some of the labelers have obvious ulterior motives. Patrick Buchanan, for one, claims that his views represent the true faith of the American right. He wants to drive the neocon infidels from the temple (or, more accurately, from the church). Unfortunately for Mr. Buchanan, his version of conservatism -- nativist, protectionist, isolationist -- attracts few followers, as evidenced by his poor showings in Republican presidential primaries and the scant influence of his inaptly named magazine, the American Conservative. Buchananism isn't American conservatism as we understand it today. It's paleoconservatism, a poisonous brew that was last popular when Father Charles Coughlin, not Rush Limbaugh, was the leading conservative broadcaster in America.

When Buchananites toss around "neoconservative" -- and cite names like Wolfowitz and Cohen -- it sometimes sounds as if what they really mean is "Jewish conservative." This is a malicious slur on two levels. First, many of the leading neocons aren't Jewish; Jeane Kirkpatrick, Bill Bennett, Father John Neuhaus and Michael Novak aren't exactly menorah lighters. Second, support for Israel -- a key tenet of neoconservatism -- is hardly confined to Jews; its strongest constituency in America happens to be among evangelical Christians.

So is "neoconservatism" worthless as a political label? Not entirely. In social policy, it stands for a broad sympathy with a traditionalist agenda and a rejection of extreme libertarianism. Neocons have led the charge to combat some of the wilder excesses of academia and the arts. But there is hardly an orthodoxy laid down by Neocon Central. I, for one, am not eager to ban either abortion or cloning, two hot-button issues on the religious right. On economic matters, neocons -- like pretty much all other Republicans, except for Mr. Buchanan and his five followers -- embrace a laissez-faire line, though they are not as troubled by the size of the welfare state as libertarians are.

But it is not really domestic policy that defines neoconservatism. This was a movement founded on foreign policy, and it is still here that neoconservatism carries the greatest meaning, even if its original raison d'être -- opposition to communism -- has disappeared.

Pretty much all conservatives today agree on the need for a strong, vigorous foreign policy. There is no constituency for isolationism on the right, outside the Buchananite fever swamps. The question is how to define our interventionism.

One group of conservatives believes that we should use armed force only to defend our vital national interests, narrowly defined. They believe that we should remove, or at least disarm, Saddam Hussein, but not occupy Iraq for any substantial period afterward. The idea of bringing democracy to the Middle East they denounce as a mad, hubristic dream likely to backfire with tragic consequences. This view, which goes under the somewhat self-congratulatory moniker of "realism," is championed by foreign-policy mandarins like Henry Kissinger, Brent Scowcroft and James Baker III.

Many conservatives think, however, that "realism" presents far too crabbed a view of American power and responsibility. They suggest that we need to promote our values, for the simple reason that liberal democracies rarely fight one another, sponsor terrorism, or use weapons of mass destruction. If we are to avoid another 9/11, they argue, we need to liberalize the Middle East -- a massive undertaking, to be sure, but better than the unspeakable alternative. And if this requires occupying Iraq for an extended period, so be it; we did it with Germany, Japan and Italy, and we can do it again.

The most prominent champions of this view inside the administration are Vice President Dick Cheney and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz. Their agenda is known as "neoconservatism," though a more accurate term might be "hard Wilsonianism." Advocates of this view embrace Woodrow Wilson's championing of American ideals but reject his reliance on international organizations and treaties to accomplish our objectives. ("Soft Wilsonians," a k a liberals, place their reliance, in Charles Krauthammer's trenchant phrase, on paper, not power.) Like Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan, "hard Wilsonians" want to use American might to promote American ideals.

The Good Fight

This is, in case you haven't guessed, my own view too. So I guess that makes me a neocon. It's a designation I'm willing -- nay, honored -- to accept, if it comes with a caveat: Neoconservatism -- like other political descriptions, such as "liberal" and "conservative" -- has entirely lost its original meaning. It no longer means that you're a Johnny-come-lately to the good fight, and -- contrary to Mr. Buchanan's aspersions -- neocons are no less conservative than anyone else on the right.

Actually that's an understatement. Neocons are closer to the mainstream of the Republican Party today than any competing faction. During the 2000 campaign, President Bush sounded very much like a realist, with his suspicions of "nation building" and his warnings about American hubris. Then along came 9/11. The National Security Strategy that he released in September -- which calls for "encouraging free and open societies on every continent" -- sounds as if it could have come straight from the pages of Commentary magazine, the neocon bible.

I suppose that makes George W. Bush a neocon. If it's good enough for the president, it's good enough for me.

Article
 
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Andy-
That's what I'm trying to get at too. I saw a really good documentary on the BBC on NCs, scary, scary stuff.

Hi,

Didn't see that. It's a pity that you can't quote the BBC as a source around here without it being lambasted. I used to think it was due to the fact that there had been some complaints levelled at it. Some from the public, some from its own employees. Now, from looking here lately having taken a break - I find that a lot of people (I'll let you decide on their belief/allegiance/agenda 😉) have taken just about every source critical of any aspect of US policy towards Iraq/UN/Human rights/etc and declared in "biased", "unjust" or "based on an anti-US agenda". When I hear such blanket belief it unsettles my view on anyone's allegedly reasoned arguements.

Anyway, I'm side tracking! I'll look up newamericancentury.org as I *think* I remeber such a list being shown there.

Cheers,

Andy

You hit it right on the nail bro. As of now Amnesty International, BBC, Al Jazeera (who is ironically hated by ME leaders for being to critical of them... fair and balanced anyone? oh wait, thats FOX), and basically anyone who does not support the ChickenHawks has been debunked as a "reliable" source. Check out that documentary if it comes on again, was on right after Hooligans :beer:
 
Where the choice for; We can only earn 6% at home but by exploiting new economys, resources and peoples abroad we can earn 100%?

Or My lifestyle is afforded by 1 billion living in abject poverty and I have no probelm with that.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Where the choice for; We can only earn 6% at home but by exploiting new economys, resources and peoples abroad we can earn 100%?

Or My lifestyle is afforded by 1 billion living in abject poverty and I have no probelm with that.
Just 1 billion? Now I don't feel so bad.

I know what we should do, take all the money from the people who live above the poverty line, and give it to people who live below. That will fix things.


 
Just 1 billion? Now I don't feel so bad.

I know what we should do, take all the money from the people who live above the poverty line, and give it to people who live below. That will fix things.

Not wanting to step into the middle of your little tete a tete - but sarcasm solves nothing.

Not *all* money - a proportion (like aid). More relevant I feel isn't the act of giving away earnt US money but more not exploiting people in order to make money. I think that in relation to neocon policies of aggressively pushing US interests on other countries the point of "how far does this move towards exploitation to make a quick buck" is pertinent.

Andy
 
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Just 1 billion? Now I don't feel so bad.

I know what we should do, take all the money from the people who live above the poverty line, and give it to people who live below. That will fix things.

Not wanting to step into the middle of your little tete a tete - but sarcasm solves nothing.

Not *all* money - a proportion (like aid). More relevant I feel isn't the act of giving away earnt US money but more not exploiting people in order to make money. I think that in relation to neocon policies of aggressively pushing US interests on other countries the point of "how far does this move towards exploitation to make a quick buck" is pertinent.

Andy

well lookie who is #1
Although we are lower on the list per capita. Norway is nice and generous. I couldn't find a nice total example for all countries, but I'm sure it follows 🙁


how about this?

The United States is the world leader in humanitarian assistance and food aid, providing over $2.5 billion in 2001.

The United States is the top importer of goods from developing countries, importing $449 billion in 2001, eight times the amount of total Official Development Assistance (ODA) to developing countries from all donors.

The United States is the greatest source of private capital to developing countries, averaging $36 billion annually between 1997 and 2000.

The United States leads the world in charitable donations to developing countries - $4 billion in 2000.

At $11 billion, the U.S. is the top provider of Official Development Assistance (ODA) in 2001.

 
Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Andy-
That's what I'm trying to get at too. I saw a really good documentary on the BBC on NCs, scary, scary stuff.

Hi,

Didn't see that. It's a pity that you can't quote the BBC as a source around here without it being lambasted. I used to think it was due to the fact that there had been some complaints levelled at it. Some from the public, some from its own employees. Now, from looking here lately having taken a break - I find that a lot of people (I'll let you decide on their belief/allegiance/agenda 😉) have taken just about every source critical of any aspect of US policy towards Iraq/UN/Human rights/etc and declared in "biased", "unjust" or "based on an anti-US agenda". When I hear such blanket belief it unsettles my view on anyone's allegedly reasoned arguements.

Anyway, I'm side tracking! I'll look up newamericancentury.org as I *think* I remeber such a list being shown there.

Cheers,

Andy

You hit it right on the nail bro. As of now Amnesty International, BBC, Al Jazeera (who is ironically hated by ME leaders for being to critical of them... fair and balanced anyone? oh wait, thats FOX), and basically anyone who does not support the ChickenHawks has been debunked as a "reliable" source. Check out that documentary if it comes on again, was on right after Hooligans :beer:

:brokenheart:
 
Well, it looks like the majority (70% of 33 votes) think neocons "are just fascists by another name." Are the 4 (12%) who actually think they're neocons going to stand up for themselves? Or are they content with the label "fascist?"
 
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Well, it looks like the majority (70% of 33 votes) think neocons "are just fascists by another name." Are the 4 (12%) who actually think they're neocons going to stand up for themselves? Or are they content with the label "fascist?"
It's easy to say that when there is no definition, and it is used as some kind of nasty label. Other than Moonbeams self-interested propoganda post, I still haven't seen a definition out there that sums it up, other than "a liberal who has moved to the right." So the labeling of Rummy, et al as Necons is a bunch of garbage, since he's never been a liberal 🙂 Prove me wrong.

PS Polling the P&N Forum looking for supporters of the "fascist" statement is like going to France and trying to find an asshole who smells like sh*t. Not real tough.
 
well lookie who is #1
Although we are lower on the list per capita. Norway is nice and generous. I couldn't find a nice total example for all countries, but I'm sure it follows 🙁


how about this?

The United States is the world leader in humanitarian assistance and food aid, providing over $2.5 billion in 2001.

The United States is the top importer of goods from developing countries, importing $449 billion in 2001, eight times the amount of total Official Development Assistance (ODA) to developing countries from all donors.

The United States is the greatest source of private capital to developing countries, averaging $36 billion annually between 1997 and 2000.

The United States leads the world in charitable donations to developing countries - $4 billion in 2000.

At $11 billion, the U.S. is the top provider of Official Development Assistance (ODA) in 2001.

You obviously have quite a chip on your shoulder about this. I know the US is a great benefactor - I wouldn't dispute that. The point I made regarded expressing caution when applying neocon policies to generating wealth through other countries, so not to lead to money at the expense of increased suffering.

Andy
 
Originally posted by: Fencer128
well lookie who is #1
Although we are lower on the list per capita. Norway is nice and generous. I couldn't find a nice total example for all countries, but I'm sure it follows 🙁


how about this?

The United States is the world leader in humanitarian assistance and food aid, providing over $2.5 billion in 2001.

The United States is the top importer of goods from developing countries, importing $449 billion in 2001, eight times the amount of total Official Development Assistance (ODA) to developing countries from all donors.

The United States is the greatest source of private capital to developing countries, averaging $36 billion annually between 1997 and 2000.

The United States leads the world in charitable donations to developing countries - $4 billion in 2000.

At $11 billion, the U.S. is the top provider of Official Development Assistance (ODA) in 2001.

You obviously have quite a chip on your shoulder about this. I know the US is a great benefactor - I wouldn't dispute that. The point I made regarded expressing caution when applying neocon policies to generating wealth through other countries, so not to lead to money at the expense of increased suffering.

Andy

Do you have some insight about "neocon policies to generating wealthy through other countries" the rest of us don't? Cause Bush is spending money like a drunken sailor, and not getting any return that I see, other than overthrown dictatorships which you can't really put a price on.
 
Cause Bush is spending money like a drunken sailor, and not getting any return that I see, other than overthrown dictatorships which you can't really put a price on.

Bush may not be getting anything back from this, but certain people are. Weapons manufacturers, the people who clean up after those weapons, and of course our good friends in the oil business. It's your typical scratch my back and I'll scratch yours routine. Get an idiot, who probably if he hadn't had such nice connectionsbe a damn thing in this world, a job as president, and you get a war and all the budgetary party bags that come with that. Of course lets not forget campaign contributions so he can do it all over again.

The United States is the top importer of goods from developing countries, importing $449 billion in 2001, eight times the amount of total Official Development Assistance (ODA) to developing countries from all donors.

How much are we paying for said goods? We take small, developing countries and force them to compete with US prices, which is near impossible to do without short changing the workers/countrymen a considerable amount; we buy their product for what is a good price to us, and then sell them back US products which are all overpriced to them. We bankrupt nations this way. It may look nice on paper to say we throw $449bil out to the world, but when it should be like $750bil or more (pulling a number out of my ass here, any economic experts jump in anytime 🙂 ), you begin to realize how that's not such a great thing. Always be skeptical of such claims, realize what they say and what they don't say; ask questions, "how are these prices relative to what prices would be if the countries were allowed to run in a free market, not one set up by the US?" for example or "how much food is left over after we've imported it all for the people harvesting said food?" is another good question. Private capital investments are another issue that isn't so clear cut. I'm not going to argue about the charitable and aid donations, but I think after you short change people a couple hundred bil, 30 or 40bil in aid isn't looking all that charitable (not that I'm against the aid, by all means the more the merrier).
 
Do you have some insight about "neocon policies to generating wealthy through other countries" the rest of us don't? Cause Bush is spending money like a drunken sailor, and not getting any return that I see, other than overthrown dictatorships which you can't really put a price on.

Nope. But given the change in tact recently towards "pre-emptive" I am concerned that if neocon policies succeed in being adopted and practiced hook, line and sinker in the future - that neocon pre-emptive/assertive/influence-maximising economics could lead to exploitation of others in order to achieve their goals/generate cash if not carefully run. In fact, I'd have thought that if the adminsitration really did buy whole-heatedly into this then they could not help but encourage exploitation as "keeping the other guy down" is the best way keeping them reliant on the US for trade and so also keeping them cordial through necessity. You may have to shell out a little in aid - but it gives you a lot of control and influence over a country you would possibly not otherwise have. This is mercenary - but then that's how I see the gameplan - hence my desire to highlight this.

Cheers,

Andy
 
Was the NewAmericanCentury definition of a NeoCon not good enough for anybody? Will one of the 6 NC's who participated in the poll care to share THEIR definition of a NeoCon? That was the point of this, everyone bitches about the defenition liberals provide, but no one wants to step up to the plate and give their take on it.
 
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