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Are we witnessing the dawn of the Post Enlightenment?

IronWing

IronWing

No Lifer
I have been thinking again.

I think that we are seeing the dawn of the post-enlightenment age. On so many issues, belief trumps fact to the point that observation and reason are jettisoned from public discourse. The growing movement toward belief over fact extends beyond the political realm into many aspects of daily life. People have grown up thinking that opinion surveys take precedent over observable facts. We see it in how people think about the world and how they develop opinions about it.

For example, global warming has valid scientific hypotheses worthy of further investigation, some suggesting the validity of the idea and some suggesting that it hasn't/ain't gonna happen. However, this ongoing scientific process has little to do with how most people develop their opinions about global warming. Most discourse on the topic is uninformed by science or fact and is based on political tribalism, herd instinct, and pretty graphics.

We hear people talk about how they only drink bottled or filtered water because municipal tap water is full of harmful impurities. I have yet to talk with one such person who could say specifically what is wrong with the tap water they are rejecting.

Anyway, that's what I've been thinking about.

Thoughts?
 
My tap water tastes gross and I use a Brita. Some people have legitimate concerns, like if I lived downriver from a chemical factory I don't think I would really trust the EPA over common sense.

The population being slow to advance is actually a good thing. If they jumped on every new idea that sounded good, we would be in trouble.

Your ideas might be good but the next whackjob to preceed you most likely won't have good ideas.
 
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IronWing said:
We hear people talk about how they only drink bottled or filtered water because municipal tap water is full of harmful impurities. I have yet to talk with one such person who could say specifically what is wrong with the tap water they are rejecting.
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Come to Denver, Colorado... specifically the suburb of Aurora... try the tap water.

After you get out of the hospital... you tell me if you'll drink it again... or want Bottled water.
 
Yes I agree with you in principle IronWing.

Medical modalities like homeopathy, acupuncture and chiropractic are gaining momentum despite the fact that virtually every study confirms that they're total bullshit (and the studies that claim otherwise are, without exception, of poor quality).

Religion is showing no signs of abating despite science pushing the boundaries of what is unexplained by naturalism further and further back every day.

Public discourse on topics like global climate change are so far out of sync with discourse in the scientific community it's just ridiculous.

There are so many more examples. Essentially people in our society are moving towards a concerning mistrust of science and credulity that frankly scares the shit out of me.
 
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guyver01 said:
Come to Denver, Colorado... specifically the suburb of Aurora... try the tap water.

After you get out of the hospital... you tell me if you'll drink it again... or want Bottled water.
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Oddly enough I was in Lakewood last week. The water there was fine. There is a difference between water that tastes bad and bad water. Phoenix water tastes nasty but it is not unhealthful. This was the point of the bottled/filtered water example. Many people take it on faith that municipal tap water is unhealthful yet can't explain why and don't care to. Instead they buy bottled/filtered water based solely on faith that it is healthier.
 
IronWing said:
Does the water just taste bad or is there a public health advisory in effect?

Edit: I found Aurora Water's 2009 Water Quality Report which documents testing results for 2008. Unless things have changed since then or the report has errors, the water quality looks fine from a health standpoint.
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The water tastes horrendous... and smells like raw sewage.

i couldn't give a rats ass what the quality looks like from a "health standpoint" ... i could give you something to eat that from a "health standpoint" is perfectly fine... but id bet money you couldn't make it thru one bite.
 
I think it is due to the fact that we cannot trust the information we are provided, combined with the fact that necessary information is not being communicated. It seems that facts are biased and information is hidden. Nobody knows the real truth.

If I can protect my personal health and that of my family by taking small preventative steps like purchasing and using a water filter in my home, then I will without second thought, even if the threat is imagined.
 
IGBT said:
it's the end result of yuppie in breeding. all societies fail.
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Excuse me? You're a prime example of what this thread is about. You're an anti-science dimwit, a prime example of what the OP is talking about. You're a failure. You're the worst kind of human being.
 
Ehhhhhhhhhhh I actually strongly disagree.

Sure on certain major issues, trend & bandwagon mindset trump the facts, but these are on a very minor scale.

People were so fucking ignorant and stupid back in 1800's, 1900's and as late as 60's and 90's. On a massive overall scale, the general populous were fucking superstitious (She's a witch!), stupid and believed in some dumbass crap without reason.

Today, we are far smarter. Even your average hick in 2010 knows that maggots in the rotten meat came from eggs laid by adult flies, not magically created within the meat. If his child gets sick, he knows it's from some source that's not black magic. That hick also knows there is no damn Bigfoot in the woods.

And I agree with the other poster's good point. It's not so much people are stupid, people have a hard time deciphering which is the real truth since everything has been fucking politicized. I mean, I frankly don't know how real or fictitious global warming is. There are tons of exhaustive studies for both agenda. I mean, everyone can cherry pick data and publish a thorough and scientific study on both arguments. As for average audience like us, who really gives a flying fuck to really decipher what's bullshit and what is not?

This leads to skepticism, regardless of side. Once I'm convinced global warming is a bullshit, the counter part seems real stupid. But if I were convinced that it was true, I would think the politics of calling it BS would seem pretty retarded too.

So yea, I disagree with you on your notion. Yes, hippies believe in stupid shit. But that is an impact of a sand grain when you blanket the whole human race as getting stupider compared to Age of Enlightenment.
 
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Matthiasa said:
Get better topics as witness to the fact.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/images/petit150.jpg
😛

Me personally I would prefer it to be a little warm then for it to fall back down to the temperatures listed during most of the graph. But maybe that is just me.
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I wasn't advocating a position on the topic, but pointing out that the science doesn't matter in the wider, public debate as people don't seem to derive their opinions concerning the topic from facts or evidence.
 
GodlessAstronomer said:
Medical modalities like homeopathy, acupuncture and chiropractic are gaining momentum despite the fact that virtually every study confirms that they're total bullshit (and the studies that claim otherwise are, without exception, of poor quality).
.
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I do agree there are lots of QUACKS in homeopathy & acupuncture, but to discard it as total bullshit is... well, pretty retarded in my opinion.

Homeopathy isn't some made up shit. Ingredients found in herbs and shit work because they're no different than the shit in your medication. If anything pills are extracted from those natural flora.

There is a reason why old school western homeopathy learned to ingest ground-up crab shells to ease heartburn. Why? Because the shells are calcium, same shit found in your TUMS.

There is a reason why modern medicine are taking cues from traditional Asian homeopathy.

Again, if I get sick, I go to a damn hospital. I avoid alternative medicine too because of the quacks that plague the practice. But don't dismiss the whole thing as complete bullshit. The 'studies' you read are cherry picked (see my above post) since you already made up your mind. It's just human nature.
 
Key West said:
I do agree there are lots of QUACKS in homeopathy & acupuncture, but to discard it as total bullshit is... well, pretty retarded in my opinion.

Homeopathy isn't some made up shit. Ingredients found in herbs and shit work because they're no different than the shit in your medication. If anything pills are extracted from those natural flora.

There is a reason why old school western homeopathy learned to ingest ground-up crab shells to ease heartburn. Why? Because the shells are calcium, same shit found in your TUMS.

There is a reason why modern medicine are taking cues from traditional Asian homeopathy.

Again, if I get sick, I go to a damn hospital. I avoid alternative medicine too because of the quacks that plague the practice. But don't dismiss the whole thing as complete bullshit. The 'studies' you read are cherry picked (see my above post) since you already made up your mind. It's just human nature.
Click to expand...

Homeopathy != herbal medicine

Homeopathy from Wikipedia
 
Key West said:
I do agree there are lots of QUACKS in homeopathy & acupuncture, but to discard it as total bullshit is... well, pretty retarded in my opinion.

Homeopathy isn't some made up shit. Ingredients found in herbs and shit work because they're no different than the shit in your medication. If anything pills are extracted from those natural flora.

There is a reason why old school western homeopathy learned to ingest ground-up crab shells to ease heartburn. Why? Because the shells are calcium, same shit found in your TUMS.

There is a reason why modern medicine are taking cues from traditional Asian homeopathy.

Again, if I get sick, I go to a damn hospital. I avoid alternative medicine too because of the quacks that plague the practice. But don't dismiss the whole thing as complete bullshit. The 'studies' you read are cherry picked (see my above post) since you already made up your mind. It's just human nature.
Click to expand...
Ultrafail.
 
GodlessAstronomer said:
Yes I agree with you in principle IronWing.

Medical modalities like homeopathy, acupuncture and chiropractic are gaining momentum despite the fact that virtually every study confirms that they're total bullshit (and the studies that claim otherwise are, without exception, of poor quality).

Religion is showing no signs of abating despite science pushing the boundaries of what is unexplained by naturalism further and further back every day.

Public discourse on topics like global climate change are so far out of sync with discourse in the scientific community it's just ridiculous.

There are so many more examples. Essentially people in our society are moving towards a concerning mistrust of science and credulity that frankly scares the shit out of me.
Click to expand...
untrue... there are good quality studies that i've posted that show chiropractic to be beneficial for musculoskeletal issues, more than pt and medical care. however, for medical issues, not many good, full studies have been done yet... just back and neck studies so far.

also, acupuncture is being shown to be beneficial for pain (not that i'm into acpuncture). on the same token, there's not much difference shown between sham acupuncture and real acupuncture (with needles as opposed to digital), just that there's a similar opiate effect regardless.
 
eits said:
also, acupuncture is being shown to be beneficial for pain (not that i'm into acpuncture). on the same token, there's not much difference shown between sham acupuncture and real acupuncture (with needles as opposed to digital), just that there's a similar opiate effect regardless.
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Actually the recent study that showed benefits of acupuncture for pain showed that acupuncture was no better than placebo. The conclusion drawn by the true believers that conducted the trial is that placebo also works :\ It was a pathetically poor paper.

Yeah I meant chiropractic in medical terms. I'm aware of the positive studies for lower back pain and some other muscular skeletal issues. However whether you think that's really chiropractic or just regular physical therapy is up for debate.
 
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