Are we headed toward a class war?

[ComradeBeck]

Just please don't tell me it is the 1%'s fault for preventing the 99% from obtaining 51% of an election's vote.

Of course you will, though.

This is not what anyone is saying, people are mad because the choices are all tools of the 1%. Thus we have no Democratic representation.

When the corporations beat you over the head with their propaganda through bought media empires then subvert the democratic process with lobbyists and bought out politicians you are not living in a democratic free society accountable to the people, it is a form of corporate feudalism. Plain and simple.

 

[cubby1223]

This is not what anyone is saying, people are mad because the choices are all tools of the 1%. Thus we have no Democratic representation.

When the corporations beat you over the head with their propaganda through bought media empires then subvert the democratic process with lobbyists and bought out politicians you are not living in a democratic free society accountable to the people, it is a form of corporate feudalism. Plain and simple.

If writing that is what helps you sleep at night, who am I to disagree?





Name me one primary where "the 99%" does not have the power to place a candidate in the primary, vote for the candidate, and have the candidate win?

 

[ComradeBeck]

If writing that is what helps you sleep at night, who am I to disagree?

Pretty weak man. You have a lot of work to step up your game if thats all you have to defend your delusion.

 

[cwjerome]

No, we are not headed towards a class war. The economy has been pretty crappy and a good amount of people aren't pleased, but the only thing this will result in are lively and entertaining political debates and races. Between the Tea Party and the whole OWS movement, and everything in-between, hopefully all this hoopla can eventually bring about some positive results in the next couple years. Although the level of discourse has been crude, it's a start and better than nothing I guess.

It is amusing to see some of the far left people around here drool over themselves in a giddy display of protest fever, as if earth-shattering change will sweep the world as a socialist paradise erupts and all evil right wing movements will cease to exist. lolzinfawks. I suppose you gotta hitch your hope wagon to something...

 

[Greenman]

What's sad is the 1% have brainwashed a good deal of conservatives into hating their brothers that they should be joining, whilst fucking them in the ass under the delusion that someday they might be rich too.

Truly sad how conservatism continues to hold this country back. They are an embarrassment to this nation.

It's always good to have an enemy you can point at. In times past it would have been a religion or ethnic group. Modern progressive liberals have found a group to hate that isn't contained within traditional boundary's, this gives them the ability to invoke the basest of human emotions while still claiming intellectual superiority.

 

[KlokWyze]

No, we are not headed towards a class war. The economy has been pretty crappy and a good amount of people aren't pleased, but the only thing this will result in are lively and entertaining political debates and races. Between the Tea Party and the whole OWS movement, and everything in-between, hopefully all this hoopla can eventually bring about some positive results in the next couple years. Although the level of discourse has been crude, it's a start and better than nothing I guess.

It is amusing to see some of the far left people around here drool over themselves in a giddy display of protest fever, as if earth-shattering change will sweep the world as a socialist paradise erupts and all evil right wing movements will cease to exist. lolzinfawks. I suppose you gotta hitch your hope wagon to something...

I'll pretty much agree with all of that and I'll put my money on nothing positive coming out of either OWS or the Tea Party.

 

[Bowfinger]

People differ in opinion on whether being a slave at the government plantation is in their best interests.

Not quite. People have been duped into believing the only alternative to our current state of pervasive corruption is "being a slave at the government plantation." It's nonsense, a blatant false dichotomy, and a perfect example of how so many have been duped by the right-wing propaganda machine. It is easily refuted simply by looking at our own history, where we've had periods of tremendous prosperity while striking a much better balance between the have-mores and have-nots.

 

[Craig234]

Well, it's not really war until somebody fights back.

I disagree. One side can war on another. Happens all the time. E.g.:

- Reagan's war against Grenada
- Indonesion war against East Timoor
- Hitler's war on Jews, gays, handicapped, Gypsies and left-wing people
- Various wars against native populations
- Liberals' war on Christmas, Halloween and allowing fundamentalists unequal privileges
(Credit to Fox for the last story)

When Germany declared war on the US in 1941, it didn't take effect when the US did too.

 

[Bowfinger]

[ ... ]It is amusing to see some of the far left people around here drool over themselves in a giddy display of protest fever, as if earth-shattering change will sweep the world as a socialist paradise erupts and all evil right wing movements will cease to exist. lolzinfawks. I suppose you gotta hitch your hope wagon to something...

I know what you mean. For me it's amusing to watch the nutters build straw men instead of forming honest arguments. P&N has something for everyone!

 

[Craig234]

I'll pretty much agree with all of that and I'll put my money on nothing positive coming out of either OWS or the Tea Party.

They are totally different movements whatever happens, so don't suggest any false equivalency.

The Tea Party was born from a financial reporter furious that Obama would DARE suggest a $75 billion program to help some poor homeowners, while trillions for Wall Stret were ok:

"Mr. Santelli grew agitated on air. "This is America!" he yelled. "How many of you people want to pay for your neighbor's mortgage that has an extra bathroom and can't pay their bills?"

The Tea Paerty was a movement easily led by the nose with the wallets of right-wing interests like the Kock brothers, soon demanding to be 'free' of environmental rules.

The Occupy movement is almost the opposite. While the Tea Party did have a few strains at moments ineffectively against 'too big to fail', the Occupy movement is about the people.

The Occupy movement is a legitimate grass-roots movement while the Tea Party has a lot of astroturf. The Occupy movement hasn't adopted a corporate agenda.

The Tea Party has had some people take some bus rides (some Koch paid for) to some speeches (at often Fox News-organized events).

The Occupy movement has had people made a lot bigger sacrifice to protest - a mix of 'professional protestors' the right likes to attack and middle class workers and others.

If the Occupy movement ended tomorrow, it wouldn't be comparable to the Tea Party.
It's a far more legitimate, democratic movement with a far better agenda.

While not quite as specific yet - not "ban the EPA", but just 'find ways to address the huge growth in inequality' primarily - it's better.

Save234

 

[ComradeBeck]

I suppose you gotta hitch your hope wagon to something...

Let's hear your plan! One where people will take action now and get on board?


You know, besides apathy and bitching on the net?

Getting Americans off their ass from the TV and caring about relevant issues is a avalanche of change compared to the past 30 years. You know as well as I.

Maybe OWS will change the world, I would not make a bet on it but people taking real action I am down for. Chomping at the bit listening to complaining got old long ago while watching the country crumble.

If I am called out as a idealist that is fine, I am perfectly willing to take that risk, the reality is with this action the debate has changed in the US already for the positive. Societies do not change overnight usually.

A good way to get rid of tyranny without turning a society on it's head is civil disobedience, the USA has a very corrupt power base, but they are in no way indestructible, and OWS has shown this to some degree, that is progress. A good start for one month or so, I sure dont sea the Teabaggers or establishment republicans doing anything but still hiding under their beds wetting themselves over the cold war and shit like Sharia law taking over. Useless and irrelevant to our problems, much less it stinks of a manufactured doctored issues to distract small minded folks.

 

[Jhhnn]

Isn't it great to at least live in a country where you are one idea, one invention, one break, and little luck away from being rich? Don't complain because you lack creativity and ideas. If you lived in Europe you'd have basically no chance to become rich unless you already were part of the upper classes of society. You would have better safety nets though.

So what do you prefer? Some safety nets, but sky's the limit here in the U.S., or lots of safety nets, but pretty much certain you are going to be 'just average' your whole life in Europe... ?

I'll take the U.S. any day of the week and twice on Sunday, thank you. (And btw, I'm married to a European... and her parents moved here too and are dual citizens).

Dreams vs reality. People in other parts of the world harbor such dreams as well, and fulfill them all the time. Inventors and true entrepreneurs are unfettered by socialist aspects of their societies- they're often aided in the formative period, and enjoy much the same sort of patent protections we do. You can't possibly validate the notion that we have greater social & economic mobility, because it's not true. We're just more optimistic, or delusional, depending on how we look at it-

http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_InternationalComparisons_ChapterIII.pdf

I suspect it was true 100 years ago. I suspect it was still true when the continuous re-leveling of financial fortunes provided by the New Deal were still in place, pre-Reagan.

The problem with what you offer is that 99.9% of the population will never be the top .1%, and there's no sense in letting them have everything, which is apparently their goal. It's not like the financial elite even benefit from the vast majority of their wealth other than in an abstract way. The enterprises they own make money faster than they can possibly spend it, often with no input from them whatsoever. They often have little idea of what they do own, like John McCain's houses.

And yet the usual Righties firmly believe that they have the right to even more, even at the price of others having less. And they deny the most fundamental aspects of money & how it circulates in the economy, the diminishing marginal utility of money. Median families' economic welfare is strongly affected in real ways by a change of 5% in their incomes while those making millions/year won't even notice unless they check the books. Being unemployed for months on end devastates median families, but becomes meaningless to the investor class, because their investments are still employed, and because if worse comes to worse, they can liquidate some of their holdings. Most median families have no holdings, particularly not in the wake of the Ownership Society.

There's a big gap between what you believe to be true and what is true, and that gap just becomes more apparent the more inequality we have in our society. Which is not to deny that we need it, we do, but merely to offer that we can also have too much of a good thing.

 

[ComradeBeck]

So what do you prefer? Some safety nets, but sky's the limit here in the U.S., or lots of safety nets, but pretty much certain you are going to be 'just average' your whole life in Europe... ?

Meh, I think gambling sucks and shows personal irresponsibility, nor am I interested in spending most of my life working my ass off for a one in a million chance to get lucky.

I am just fine with working to provide for my family and my endeavors, money is but a tool to provide more options in life, not a reason to live.

If you guys enjoy the rat race then have at it, but not everyone agrees with you. Remember, 999,999 people out of that million grow old and bitter having literally throwing their whole working lives away miserable to enrich their bosses.

This is not exactly the reality they beat you over the head with to make you work harder, eh?

So I would say.....A, with a mixture of B. Stability is a good thing for building something with a solid foundation.

This is common sense. But then I like building stuff.

 

[Matt1970]

Remember, 999,999 people out of that million grow old and bitter having literally throwing their whole working lives away miserable to enrich their bosses.

You have one twisted view of the world to think that only 1 person in 1,000,000 is happy with life. You truly are clueless beyond belief.

 

[HendrixFan]

Just please don't tell me it is the 1%'s fault for preventing the 99% from obtaining 51% of an election's vote.

Quite a foolish position to take there.

You think voting for Obama over McCain, or vice versa would have fixed the problem? You think voting for whoever is running in 2012 will fix the problem? The 1% have gotten too deeply embedded into the political system. Whichever side you vote for will throw a few bones your way, but at the end of the day the 1% will always suck more out of the system.

The OWS movement isn't about voting for Obama or Romney or whoever. It is about people pushing the agenda to where it needs to go, so that the candidates have to take reform seriously. Meanwhile, people like you cubby1223, will sit there and degrade those who want meaningful change. You do the bidding of the 1%.

 

[Vic Vega]

Odd how you consider the poor to be winning the class war when their share of national wealth and income they own has been steadily decreasing.

Where do people get this stuff?

This idea of shared wealth is a fantasy.

FYI, I'm on my way to your house to get my share of your... I mean our, stuff.

 

[Craig234]

This idea of shared wealth is a fantasy.

FYI, I'm on my way to your house to get my share of your... I mean our, stuff.

You're a member of some bizarre right-wing cult that has taken hold in America and equates the common good with theft. It's idiotic and dangerous, even evil.

Part of the problem is apparently that we ask our weaker citizens to appreciate economic issues they're clueless about, resulting in posts like yours.

 

[sandorski]

Isn't it great to at least live in a country where you are one idea, one invention, one break, and little luck away from being rich? Don't complain because you lack creativity and ideas. If you lived in Europe you'd have basically no chance to become rich unless you already were part of the upper classes of society. You would have better safety nets though.

So what do you prefer? Some safety nets, but sky's the limit here in the U.S., or lots of safety nets, but pretty much certain you are going to be 'just average' your whole life in Europe... ?

I'll take the U.S. any day of the week and twice on Sunday, thank you. (And btw, I'm married to a European... and her parents moved here too and are dual citizens).

Naive BS post of the day. Congrats.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Not one person here doesn't want to see tech advance. We see it as a means of a better life and away out of this world crisis. But tech has I downside. It displaces people this a huge problem for YOU and ME. AS tech moves forward . The Haves will see the have nots as leaches. I am not so sure that this hasn't already happened. The fox is a foot and the hunt is on. SO ya I think a class war is coming. The cause being that very tech. You guys on the east coast thought last winter was bad your in for a shocker. Cause and effect . Its all about frequency. Food prices are going to explode even moreso . OH YA the blood is going to run . Its clear as day.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Not only has the rich's share of wealth increased, their share of income has increased as well.... which would have nothing to do with how many kids anyone has.

You're terrible at this. You're another one of my favorites on the 'aggressively dumb' list.

Yet you have more and more people demanding wealth that they have not earned. And more suckers willing to steal that wealth to hand it over.
Between the poor beggars and the do-gooder Robin Hoods; it seems as the numbers are heavily skewed.

 

[cwjerome]

I know what you mean. For me it's amusing to watch the nutters build straw men instead of forming honest arguments. P&N has something for everyone!

Come on Bowfinger, you know you've wet your pants in excitement a few times over the last week, judging from the frequency and tone of your posts.

And I'm over the straw man thing, those are as common around here as pug noses in Pittsburgh. But FYI, the part you quoted wasn't an argument and it wasn't reasoning... it was a mildly exaggerated impression and if you're going to pull out the straw man meme on something like a simple impression you are really strrrreeetching yourself to the point of defensive absurdity. Seriously, do we have to go through just a few of YOUR posts and pick out all the little exaggerated perceptions?

"The wing-nut propaganda machine"
"hilarious to see just how easily the sock puppets for the corrupt status quo are herded into action"
"science of duping people into acting against their own best interests beyond even Goebbels' dreams"
"it seems like you must be scared shitless that these kids"
"that must be what scares your masters the most"
"the polished propaganda points parroted by an army of nutter sock puppets"

Hyperbole is fun! If you dish it, prepare to take it as well.

 

[fskimospy]

Yet you have more and more people demanding wealth that they have not earned. And more suckers willing to steal that wealth to hand it over.
Between the poor beggars and the do-gooder Robin Hoods; it seems as the numbers are heavily skewed.

So if they are so heavily skewed, why have the shares of income and wealth of the richest people continued to increase? (I won't even get into the idea of what is 'earned'.)

The rich have been engaging in relentless class warfare for three decades or more. I'm glad that the poor are finally starting to notice.

 

[Bowfinger]

Come on Bowfinger, you know you've wet your pants in excitement a few times over the last week, judging from the frequency and tone of your posts.

And I'm over the straw man thing, those are as common around here as pug noses in Pittsburgh. But FYI, the part you quoted wasn't an argument and it wasn't reasoning... it was a mildly exaggerated impression and if you're going to pull out the straw man meme on something like a simple impression you are really strrrreeetching yourself to the point of defensive absurdity. Seriously, do we have to go through just a few of YOUR posts and pick out all the little exaggerated perceptions?

"The wing-nut propaganda machine"
"hilarious to see just how easily the sock puppets for the corrupt status quo are herded into action"
"science of duping people into acting against their own best interests beyond even Goebbels' dreams"
"it seems like you must be scared shitless that these kids"
"that must be what scares your masters the most"
"the polished propaganda points parroted by an army of nutter sock puppets"

Hyperbole is fun! If you dish it, prepare to take it as well.

Nice rationalization, but I was addressing straw men, not mere hyperbole. There is a difference.

 

[momeNt]

So if they are so heavily skewed, why have the shares of income and wealth of the richest people continued to increase? (I won't even get into the idea of what is 'earned'.)

The rich have been engaging in relentless class warfare for three decades or more. I'm glad that the poor are finally starting to notice.

Class warfare legislation was passed in December of 1913 and went into effect in January of 1914 actually.

Plans were indeed sped up 40 years ago when Nixon took us off the Bretton-Woods and gave even more power to the Federal Reserve.

I agree with you that this was done by the rich, but what would anybody have expected them to do if they were given the reigns to such an enormously powerful tool? Actually create wealth for people other than themselves?

 

[soulcougher73]

If writing that is what helps you sleep at night, who am I to disagree?





Name me one primary where "the 99%" does not have the power to place a candidate in the primary, vote for the candidate, and have the candidate win?

All candidates are bought and paid for so they dont serve anyone but the 1%'ers. So all the 99% get are what the 1% paid for.