Are there any MP3's with DTS or Dolby Digital???
- Thread starter Rufikaus
- Start date
Wouldn't it be mega-huge, defeating the point of compression in the first place? I think that's one of the reasons only DVD's have DTS and Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks... because of DVD's huge ass capacity.
Of course, I could be wrong...
Of course, I could be wrong...
oh yeah...the file size would be HUGE if you had DD or DTS included.
There are DTS CDs out there though. And certain CD players (my Technics does) support an optical DTS out. You still need a decoder on the receiver however.
Very little music is recorded in 4 channel sound, and right now there's no proprietary standard for 4-6 channel music.
I don't think it can ever become mainstream since there's too many people out there with headphones and boomboxes.
Think of it as trying to find a suitable replacement for the 1.44 floppy
There are DTS CDs out there though. And certain CD players (my Technics does) support an optical DTS out. You still need a decoder on the receiver however.
Very little music is recorded in 4 channel sound, and right now there's no proprietary standard for 4-6 channel music.
I don't think it can ever become mainstream since there's too many people out there with headphones and boomboxes.
Think of it as trying to find a suitable replacement for the 1.44 floppy
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
- 24,002
- 1,621
- 126
<< Are there any MP3's with DTS or Dolby Digital??? >>
No. They are different compression schemes. I suspect you could include Dolby Surround in an MP3 though, but I dunno for sure. I'll have to try that some time - rip a surround track off a movie or something into MP3, and see if my receiver "understands" the matrixed Dolby Surround signal from the MP3 output. NE1 done this?
<< the file size would be HUGE if you had DD or DTS included >>
DD format is quite small actually. A usual six channel DD track is 384 Kbps, or about 1/4 size of a standard PCM stereo track. That means, a six channel DD track is only about double the size of one of the better quality Napsterized MP3 filez out there.
So it's big but not huge. Actually, when directly compared, DD filez are smaller than MP3 files. DD 2.0 stereo usually has very small bit rates. On the other hand, good quality MP3 sounds better than good quality Dolby Digital IMHO, but if done correctly, DD can still sound very good.
I believe DD5.1 and DTS tracks are usually in .VOB format (or .AOB). I don't know how much the audio takes up but the typical 30-sec DD5.1/DTS trailer with video takes up ~20-30 MB. I think DTS takes up more room than DD5.1 because of the higher sampling rate.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
- 24,002
- 1,621
- 126
DTS 5.1 can be several times the size of DD 5.1, with the max somewhere around 1.5 Mbps (can't remember the exact number), or about the same size as a stereo PCM track.
So, the vast majority of data in that trailer is the video. (DVD's max bit rate I think is about 9 or 10 Mbps, but averages less than 4 or 5 I believe. So a DD 5.1 track occupies less than 1/10th the overall bit rate and thus less than 1/10th the space of the disk, or about 1/20th the size if the video were running at max bit rate.
That would make sense.
A 192 Kbps MP3 song that is 4.5 minutes long is just over 5 MB in size. Therefore a 30 second MP3 song is about 0.5 MB. If a DD 5.1 track is twice the size of an MP3 song, then a 30 second DD track is about 1 MB.
By the way, that 30 MB size for a movie trailer usually cannot be extrapolated to a whole movie. 30 seconds of a movie is smaller. Say one 4700 MB DVD holds 133 minutes, then 30 seconds of a movie (with absolutely nothing else on the disc) will be just under 18 MB.
A DVD with 30 MB per 30 seconds will only hold 80 minutes for a single layer disc.
So, the vast majority of data in that trailer is the video. (DVD's max bit rate I think is about 9 or 10 Mbps, but averages less than 4 or 5 I believe. So a DD 5.1 track occupies less than 1/10th the overall bit rate and thus less than 1/10th the space of the disk, or about 1/20th the size if the video were running at max bit rate.
That would make sense.
A 192 Kbps MP3 song that is 4.5 minutes long is just over 5 MB in size. Therefore a 30 second MP3 song is about 0.5 MB. If a DD 5.1 track is twice the size of an MP3 song, then a 30 second DD track is about 1 MB.
By the way, that 30 MB size for a movie trailer usually cannot be extrapolated to a whole movie. 30 seconds of a movie is smaller. Say one 4700 MB DVD holds 133 minutes, then 30 seconds of a movie (with absolutely nothing else on the disc) will be just under 18 MB.
A DVD with 30 MB per 30 seconds will only hold 80 minutes for a single layer disc.
SUOrangeman
Diamond Member
- Oct 12, 1999
- 8,361
- 0
- 0
yeah Dolby Digital and DTS are already compressed (different methods of compression), the question is, could you go any further with MP3, correct?
if you did things similar to Joint Stereo in a multi-channel MP3, then yeah I think you COULD have multi channel MP3's (seperate streams for each speaker), compressed a bit more then the original (not necessarily by much).
however I have yet to see a point to doing this, except for DVD RIPPING and Super CD possibly, which are the only audio sources that actually have Dolby Digital and DTS capabilities, there isn't any real demand to do so. Subsequently, no-one has developed an encoder, let alone DECODER for this type of MP3.
if you did things similar to Joint Stereo in a multi-channel MP3, then yeah I think you COULD have multi channel MP3's (seperate streams for each speaker), compressed a bit more then the original (not necessarily by much).
however I have yet to see a point to doing this, except for DVD RIPPING and Super CD possibly, which are the only audio sources that actually have Dolby Digital and DTS capabilities, there isn't any real demand to do so. Subsequently, no-one has developed an encoder, let alone DECODER for this type of MP3.
You can encode Dolby Surround (3-channel) or Dolby Pro Logic (4-channel) in an mp3, but not DD or DTS. DS and DPL are both matrixed systems, and extract their additional channels from the 2 basic stereo channels. DD and DTS are discrete multi-channel.
SuperAudio (SACD) is similar to regular CD audio except SA uses a longer digital word length and a higher sampling frequency.
SuperAudio (SACD) is similar to regular CD audio except SA uses a longer digital word length and a higher sampling frequency.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
- 24,002
- 1,621
- 126
<< You can encode Dolby Surround (3-channel) or Dolby Pro Logic (4-channel) in an mp3, but not DD or DTS. DS and DPL are both matrixed systems, and extract their additional channels from the 2 basic stereo channels. >>
Yeah, I figured as much, but I've never tried it. Have you tried it?
I wonder how low the encoding bit-rate for an MP3 can go before the matrixed surround info goes all wonky. I suspect a standard 128 file would be fine though. DD 5.1 files are a much lower bit rate and Pro Logic works fine, but then again, DD 5.1 is designed specifically to be able to be downmixed to Pro Logic.
Eug, where are you going to find a Digital source to create the MP3?
first of all, I've played CD's on Dolby Pro Logic systems (the last one before Dolby Digital, I don't remember if it's called Dolby Pro Logic or Dolby Surround or something)..
with Dolby Pro Logic on, it has it's own sounds matrixed from the original CD on the back speakers (which are only one channel).
It might not apply to all CDs, I don't know for sure, but it certainly does something on most CDs I have (I never tested them all).
then when I tested MP3s, I got sound as well on the back speakers, so AFAIK, Dolby Pro Logic might not have to be BUILT into the original audio, to be placed on the back speakers, but in order to make proper use of them, you need specifically Dolby Pro Logic sources.
anyway, when I played anything with Dolby Pro Logic, I listened right up close to the rear channel, and found that it actually plays some sounds that I've never really heard stick out of the song when playing on headphones (stereo mode).
I also noticed INSANE amounts of artifacts when playing MP3's. the Dolby Pro Logic system obviously looks for sounds that aren't very audible to the human ear when played in Stereo mode, which is exactly what MP3's remove (audio sources you can't really hear). When used properly, Dolby Pro Logic can be pretty good.
it sounded so bad that it was like an extremely low quality real-player audio file.. it was horrid, but at a normal listening position you actually don't notice it (it's hidden after all).
first of all, I've played CD's on Dolby Pro Logic systems (the last one before Dolby Digital, I don't remember if it's called Dolby Pro Logic or Dolby Surround or something)..
with Dolby Pro Logic on, it has it's own sounds matrixed from the original CD on the back speakers (which are only one channel).
It might not apply to all CDs, I don't know for sure, but it certainly does something on most CDs I have (I never tested them all).
then when I tested MP3s, I got sound as well on the back speakers, so AFAIK, Dolby Pro Logic might not have to be BUILT into the original audio, to be placed on the back speakers, but in order to make proper use of them, you need specifically Dolby Pro Logic sources.
anyway, when I played anything with Dolby Pro Logic, I listened right up close to the rear channel, and found that it actually plays some sounds that I've never really heard stick out of the song when playing on headphones (stereo mode).
I also noticed INSANE amounts of artifacts when playing MP3's. the Dolby Pro Logic system obviously looks for sounds that aren't very audible to the human ear when played in Stereo mode, which is exactly what MP3's remove (audio sources you can't really hear). When used properly, Dolby Pro Logic can be pretty good.
it sounded so bad that it was like an extremely low quality real-player audio file.. it was horrid, but at a normal listening position you actually don't notice it (it's hidden after all).
<< Dolby Pro Logic system obviously looks for sounds that aren't very audible to the human ear when played in Stereo mode >>
The DPL signal is matrixed, or combined, with the regular stereo information in a very specific way. The DPL decoder essentially filters out these signals and steers them to the appropriate channels. Much, if not all, regular stereo program material has at least some information that a DPL decoder can/will interpret as surround channel information. But the results are unpredictable, as Soccerman has discovered.
Eug - I haven't encoded any DPL source material as mp3, but I have read somewhere in the documentation for LAME that forced stereo and J-stereo both preserve the DPL signal. Since the surround channel for Dolby Surround and the surround and center channel for DPL are both of very limited bandwidth (by that I mean frequency range, not bitrate), I suspect that it would survive the mp3 encoding process pretty much intact.
<< No. They are different compression schemes. I suspect you could include Dolby Surround in an MP3 though, but I dunno for sure. I'll have to try that some time - rip a surround track off a movie or something into MP3, and see if my receiver "understands" the matrixed Dolby Surround signal from the MP3 output. NE1 done this? >>
There are actually a number of "DVD Backup Tools" which have been written expressely for this purpose. That is, taking the the DD 5.1 AC3 and downmixing it into 2-channels, fully Dolby Pro Logic compliant. The resultant WAV can then be encoded in LAME 3.87b or higher, using either JS or standard stereo, the phase information *should* be preserved.
This is something I haven't had the chance to play with, since I only have a 3-piece speaker system, but the tools that enable you to do this are Azid and DSEnc. DSEnc requires an external commercial program, Sonic Foundry's Soft Encode 5.1, to do it's job.
<< I wonder how low the encoding bit-rate for an MP3 can go before the matrixed surround info goes all wonky. I suspect a standard 128 file would be fine though >>
Most modern day movie soundtracks are much more dynamic than cheeseball compressed to hell pop music (when I say "compressed" I am referring to the dynamic range), as well as much more complex. 128 wouldn't cut it; I'd go for LAME's VBR/ABR modes or at least 192 if CBR is a neccesity.
Shiva, CDRW is the replacement for the 1.44mb floppy.
Entirely different discussion, but I'll try to relate it to my point about audio.
CDRW is not common place the way floppies are...not everyone has a CDRW drive.
They're not as versatile as a magnetic storage device since you can only write a
limited number of times and it takes a while to do data transfer. I'm not convinced that
they are a suitable replacement.
My whole point was that mp3s are too common now for there to be big leaps in
audio compression/quality. If anything new comes out, its not gonna be adopted very
quickly since there are plenty of people out there using headphones and such for their music.
Its not profitable to produce a dolby surround 4-channel version of a song when its only
going to be heard by a select few. Thats why I eluded to trying to replace the 1.44 floppy.
Entirely different discussion, but I'll try to relate it to my point about audio.
CDRW is not common place the way floppies are...not everyone has a CDRW drive.
They're not as versatile as a magnetic storage device since you can only write a
limited number of times and it takes a while to do data transfer. I'm not convinced that
they are a suitable replacement.
My whole point was that mp3s are too common now for there to be big leaps in
audio compression/quality. If anything new comes out, its not gonna be adopted very
quickly since there are plenty of people out there using headphones and such for their music.
Its not profitable to produce a dolby surround 4-channel version of a song when its only
going to be heard by a select few. Thats why I eluded to trying to replace the 1.44 floppy.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 24K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 20K
-
-
-
Facebook
Twitter