Are surge surpressors still necessary today?

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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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You still have a network connection. You have a surge suppressor on that also??? I have one of those big cylindrical generators on the telephone pole in my back yard and it is like a lightning magnet. We had a strike to the Generator on the pole once and my hub was nocked out. For some reason the PC was not damaged enough to be affected.

I think all houses should be grounded with a copper grounding stake. Better Safe than sorry. In the old days you would have a cast Iron sewage pipe that goes into the ground and some copper pipes, but with PVC you really need a ground.

A lot depends if you live in an area that has lots of thunderstorms and a lot of rainfall. It rained like cats and dogs here yesterday. What we call a Gulley Gusher.
 
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westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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Does this mean that relatively cheap UL approved surge protectors are good to go?
It does what its manufacturer spec numbers say it would do. Many critics never provide those numbers for good reason. A power strip only claims to protect from one type of surge often made irrelevant by protection inside each appliances. Those spec numbers also say why power strips sometimes cause house fires. And do virtually nothing without a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

Your choice. Spend anywhere from $10 to $100 per protected appliance for the power strip. (A $10 one in Walmart is electrically equivalent to one sold by Monster for $80.) Or pay about $1 per protected appliance for the other and different device that protects everything from all types of surges. That 'whole house' protector is even important for protecting hundreds of (near zero) joules inside that power strip.

If you need protection on any one appliance, then you also need protection for everything else - dishwasher, bathroom GFCIs, furnace, clocks, and most important: smoke detectors. Buy one power strip for each. Or earth one 'whole house' protector to protect everything.

Your choice. Do what every facility does to have protection from all types of surges. Or do what is more expensive to protect from only one type of surge.

Engineering facts, IEEE citations, and generations of successfully making this stuff work strongly recommend a 'whole house' protector. But more important, what makes any protector effective? Single point earth ground. That is more important than any protector.
 
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Apr 20, 2005
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Does this mean that relatively cheap UL approved surge protectors are good to go?

Depends on what your protecting. Anything with a microprocessor is more vulnerable. Whole house protectors are the best, barring that I'd go with a half decent surge strip. UL approved is usually mandatory and any of the good brands will have it. For a computer system, I'd probably get a UPS.
 

bud--

Member
Nov 2, 2011
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It does what its manufacturer spec numbers say it would do.

Westom just repeats the same nonsense - already debunked.

If you need protection on any one appliance, then you also need protection for everything else - dishwasher, bathroom GFCIs, furnace, clocks, and most important: smoke detectors.

The NIST surge guide suggests most damage is from high voltage between power and cable/phone/... wires.

Or earth one 'whole house' protector to protect everything.

Repeating from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

Service panel protectors do not, by themselves, prevent high voltages from developing between power and phone/cable wires. An example of where a service panel protector would provide no protection is the IEEE surge guide example starting page 30.

Engineering facts, IEEE citations, and generations of successfully making this stuff work strongly recommend a 'whole house' protector.

They also recommend plug-in protectors for expensive electronics, particularly when there are also external signal connections. All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector. External signal connections, like coax, also must go through the protector.

Any protector you buy in the US should be listed under UL1449 (some UPSs with surge protection don't seem to be). To pass UL1449 a protector has to survive a series of test surges intact. (In later more severe tests the protector has to fail safely.) That means a UL listed protector will have at least a minimum floor of protection. Protectors with high ratings are readily available.

It is real unlikely that any building in the US does not have an earthing system. If there is a strong surge that is earthed, the building 'ground' may rise thousands of volts above 'absolute' earth potential. Much of the protection is that all wiring rises together. That requires a short ground wire from phone/cable/... entry protectors to a common connection point on the power earthing system.
 
Apr 20, 2005
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The NIST surge guide suggests most damage is from high voltage between power and cable/phone/... wires.

A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

Service panel protectors do not, by themselves, prevent high voltages from developing between power and phone/cable wires. An example of where a service panel protector would provide no protection is the IEEE surge guide example starting page 30.


They also recommend plug-in protectors for expensive electronics, particularly when there are also external signal connections. All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector. External signal connections, like coax, also must go through the protector.

Interesting, I missed that point in the NIST guide regarding voltage between power and cable/phone. A whole house phone or cable SPD would be a good way to handle that. You can get them off Amazon cheap. I personally use a commercial grade Polyphaser (old stock Ebay) that's fairly robust. It does need to have a connection to ground however.
 
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westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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I missed that point in the NIST guide regarding voltage between power and cable/phone. A whole house phone or cable SPD would be a good way to handle that.
Most posts include a last one repeatedly said ground is critical to avert destructive voltages.
Engineering facts, IEEE citations, and generations of successfully making this stuff work strongly recommend a 'whole house' protector. But more important, what makes any protector effective? Single point earth ground. That is more important than any protector.
If the single point earth ground does not exist. then destructive voltages exist between or on various appliances. As we engineers saw so many times when we analyzed and found the reason for surge damage. Page 42 figure 8 from that NIST citation shows same. Since all utility wires were not earthed to a single point earth ground (either directly or via a 'whole house' protector), then an adjacent protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through a nearby appliance.

Why is a 'whole house' protector effective and found in every facility that cannot have damage? A low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point ground means voltage difference do not exist inside. That connection (via a wire or protector) must be low impedance (ie no sharp wire bends) to single point earth ground.

Voltage differences inside between various utility wires and other items (air ducts, floor tiles, etc) explains appliance damage. A 'whole house' protector connects to single point earth ground so that destructive voltages do not exist.
 

bud--

Member
Nov 2, 2011
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Page 42 figure 8 from that NIST citation shows same. Since all utility wires were not earthed to a single point earth ground (either directly or via a 'whole house' protector), then an adjacent protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through a nearby appliance.

The lie repeated for the 4th time.

Poor westom can't understand the simple explanation in the IEEE (not NIST) surge guide. Without the protector at TV1 the voltage at TV2 is 10kV. With the protector at TV1 the voltage at TV1 is 8kV. The protector at TV1 causes no damage to TV2. The point of the illustration for anyone who can think is "to protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."

And in this example, a service panel protector would provide NO protection. The guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector." This is why the NIST surge guide has an answer of "NO", as quoted by Scipio.

And in the example there IS a "single point earth ground". But the ground wire is too long. This can happen in many houses where the cable or phone entry point is too far from the power service and earthing system.

A 'whole house' protector connects to single point earth ground so that destructive voltages do not exist.

A 'whole house' protector does not provide protection for high voltage between power and signal wires.

And, as previously posted, the usual 'ground block' for coax entry does not limit the voltage from the center conductor to the shield.

A few service panel protectors also have ports where coax (cable, dish) and phone can wire through the protector. That would provide protection in the IEEE surge guide example above (coax goes from the entry block to the service panel protector and is distributed from there). There is still a relatively low possibility of the house wiring acting as a long wire or loop antenna for a near strike and causing damage to equipment with both power and signal connections.

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For high rating MOVS in a different post - I believe there are MOVs with very high ratings. If MOVs are paralleled, a competent manufacturer will use matched units. MOV manufacturers can supply them - units from the same manufacturing run would likely work. Since the voltage across the MOV goes up with the surge current, the surge is 'shared' between paralleled MOVs with similar ratings. Matched MOVs should share equally.
 

bryanl

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2006
1,157
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What kind of surge protection do I need in case the police tase me, bro, and should it be grounded to my tinfoil hat?
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
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I just wonder why westom continues in his inane crusade of misinformation. Years have passed since I first crossed paths with that twit and he still spews his crap, even when presented with facts from true electrical engineers. He makes AMDZone look "fair and balanced" in comparison.

Good show, bud, but I think it's wasted on westom. Hope others, though, manage to avoid his diatribes and read your post. Some good sense and links in your post. Thanks!

Holy crap.. The guy's back?

I did some research on surge protectors and battery backups a while back, the guy shows up in DOZENS of threads across DOZENS of forums. Just google surge protector and his name. Wonder if he spends his days googling "surge protector"...
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
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westom? Thought they banned your ass on Techimo.com? LMAO!

As far as surge protectors go to protect against lightning strikes that's all BS. No surge protector is going to save you from a direct lightning strike. They sell something else that connects to the breaker box. BTW, because the MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) used in surge protectors they can wear out and catch fire. All you need is a cheap surge protector and replace it every three years or so.
 

SOFTengCOMPelec

Platinum Member
May 9, 2013
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westom? Thought they banned your ass on Techimo.com? LMAO!

http://www.techimo.com/forum/members/westom.html

Following quote from mod on another board, Source

Bud,

You're outta here too. You're not banned from this thread (yet) because you need to see this reply. We are not going to have you and Westom use OC Forums as your battleground for trolling each other. If either of you start a new thread to continue, you're history.

Best Regards,

RT
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
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westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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BTW, because the MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) used in surge protectors they can wear out and catch fire.
Read what that wikipedia citation says.
If the energy in a transient pulse is too high, the device may melt, burn, vaporize, or otherwise be damaged or destroyed. This (catastrophic) failure occurs when "Absolute Maximum Ratings" in manufacturer's data-sheet are significantly exceeded.
"Sacrificial protectors" are grossly undersized. MOVs that fail catastrophically violate what MOV manufacturers demand. Sometimes even cause fire.

A protector rated at hundreds of joules (near zero) will do what during a destructive surge (hundreds of thousands of joules)? Its thermal fuse must disconnect MOVs as fast as possible. Otherwise catastrophic failure or even fire may result. MOVs that wear out on a first surge, fail catastrophically, or cause fire are grossly undersized. And require protection.

More responsible manufacturers provide a protector sized to not fail even on direct lightning strikes. A minimal 'whole house' protector (properly earthed) is 50,000 amps. So that even a direct lightning strike (maybe 20,000 amps) is connected harmlessly to earth.

A MOV protector must not fail; only degrade after many surges. These superior solutions are sold even in Lowes and Home Depot.

More numbers. An MOV manufacturer discusses testing:
The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.
10,000 surges only cause a 10% voltage change and no catastrophic failure? Normal failure for a properly sized MOV is to degrade; that 10% change of its threshold voltage (Vb). When an MOV was sufficiently sized, its threshold voltage (Vb) changed after thousands of surges. Without catastrophic (unacceptable) failure.

Suppose a small surge current confronts a protector and appliance simultaneously. Superior protection inside the appliance means no damage. Meanwhile that tiny surge also destroys a grossly undersized protector. In rare cases, catastrophic failure (on a rug or behind some furniture) even caused house fires. Be concerned of any recommendation that ignores numbers.

One 'whole house' protector (ie 50,000 amps) may even protect grossly undersized, 'point of connection' protectors. Since catastrophic failure of any protector is unacceptable.
 
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Apr 20, 2005
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Yeah, I apologize for any battleground perpetuating. From now on, I'll say $10 power strip from Walmart.
 
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imagoon

Diamond Member
Feb 19, 2003
5,199
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I really am not sure I want to post this...

Whole house only block outside surges. Inside surges like the fridge stopping will not be blocked. I also have seen whole house units fail quite catastrophically as well so they are not invincible.

The jist of it is the surge needs to be handled between the surge source and device. So a whole house protector will handle outside to on premise but will do nothing if your washing machine spinning down causes a brief 200V spike on the 120V line etc. The local suppressors are not typically as strong as a whole house but will sink that 200V to ground.

You also have to manage other paths such as phone, Ethernet, cable and etc can source a surge and even direct a surge from one unprotected device to other devices behind protection such as an unprotected device taking a hit and that device sending 200V down the Ethernet line to the protected switch / computers / TV etc.

Whole house units can't hurt but they are not the entire solution.
 
Apr 20, 2005
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I really am not sure I want to post this...

Whole house only block outside surges. Inside surges like the fridge stopping will not be blocked. I also have seen whole house units fail quite catastrophically as well so they are not invincible.

Ok ok, I'll respond with some geek-ish surge tech overview on this.

There really are 2 scenarios to how a whole house unit can melt down (The assumption here is that this is a typical whole house protector with parallel MOVs soldered together or a single large MOV with no encasing material):

1. A sustained overvoltage. This is the more likely event.
2. A surge that is too big for the protector to handle. Either its a) a surge bigger than all the MOVs inside put together can handle or b) poorly matched MOVs with low tolerances (a quality assurance problem with the manufacturer in that case). So basically one or only SOME of the MOVs handle the surge in which its too much for one/them and it goes into thermal failure mode.

With scenario 1, a MOV will start to thermally runaway pretty quick if its a sustained event. After a few seconds, generally, it could actually catch fire. There's a few solutions to this.

Here is a great paper from Littlefuse on this:
http://www.newark.com/pdfs/techarticles/littelfuse/ThermallyProtectedMOVs.pdf

In these designs, the entire protector maybe taken offline by these TCO type fuses in the case of a inline fuse or just more resistant to heat in the case of TMOVs.

Even more extreme measures come with encapsulated compounds (Eaton IT Protectors) or even smooshing the MOV within an steel enclosure (Raycap Strikesorb). Both these methods can actually divert the sustained surge without completely melting down quite a few times by not letting the MOV expand thermally and also acting as a heatsink. These are expensive and closer to "total solutions".
Whole house units can't hurt but they are not the entire solution.

Ye-up!
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
517
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The jist of it is the surge needs to be handled between the surge source and device. So a whole house protector will handle outside to on premise but will do nothing if your washing machine spinning down causes a brief 200V spike on the 120V line etc. The local suppressors are not typically as strong as a whole house but will sink that 200V to ground.
Apparently they have played you with numbers. For example 120 VAC in normal operation routinely 'spikes' even to 180 volts. So 200 volts is simply an additional 20 volts of noise. Noise made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance.

Or is your washing machine, refrigerator, dishwasher, and air conditioner blowing out clocks, dimmer switches and GFCIs daily? Myth purveyors will hype noise into massive and destructive surges. Numbers only define irrelevant noise.

Surge protectors ignore voltages below 330 volts. That threshold voltage is printed on every box. What would a protector do when the washing machine spikes up to 200 volts? Completely ignores it; does nothing.

A rookie mistake is to think a protector somehow 'blocks' a surge. Move a power strip protector to any other wall receptacle on the same circuit. Protection remains electrically same. Does not matter if current is powered through a protector or from some other receptacle on the same circuit. Protection remains unchanged.

Only protector that protects from all types of surges - external or an often fictional internally generated one - is an earthed 'whole house' protector.

'Whole house' protectors are not the entire solution. As IEEE standards note, it only does 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection. You might add another 0.2% by putting a protector on the appliance power cord. But then equivalent protection is already inside each appliance. What was accomplished by spending $25 or $80 more? Especially when destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years.

To promote myths, they also forget to discuss superior protection already installed on every phone and cable - for free. For cable, a wire from cable to earth ground is best protection. If that wire meets important requirements such as no sharp bends, as short as possible (ie 'less than 10 feet'), etc. Telephone/DSL wires cannot connect directly. So the telco replacement that wire with a 'whole house' protector - for free.

Due to protection already on communication wires, then they are also a best and destructive connection to earth; IF the homeowner has let a surge enter. A most common and destructive path is a lightning strike far down the street to AC electric wires. Incoming to every appliance. And outgoing to earth on appliances that connect to the telephone or cable. The incoming and outgoing paths must exist to have damage. Where does damage often occur? On the appliance's outgoing path - the telephone or cable connection.

Just another reason why protection is always about earthing that current BEFORE it can enter. And a type of surge that no adjacent protector claims to protect from.

Did they also forget that ethernet interfaces are designed to withstand more than 1000 volts?

Myths convert appliance generated noise into massive and destructive surges that somehow forgets to damage dimmer switches, clocks, and smoke detectors. Somehow a protector that ignores voltages below 330 volts will eliminate noise from a washing machine? Same myths also forget to mention superior protection required and existing on all telephone and cable wires.
 
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