Are some people putting case fans when they don't 'need' it?

AgaBoogaBoo

Lifer
Feb 16, 2003
26,108
5
81
First, this pertains to people to don't OC their system.

Now that, that is out of the way, let me explain my past few systems. I haven't had a case fan up until maybe a year ago when I got a second hard drive for my P4 1.7Ghz system. Until then, it was running on 578MB RAM, P4 1.7, Radeon 64MB card. Before that, I have a few systems, and none of them have case fans. The only fans found on those systems was a cpu fan and PSU fan. Other than that, everything was passively cooled.

I recently upgraded and this time decided to go with a case fan that came with my Antec Sonata case, but it never spins up very fast and so its almost always quiet. I haven't felt a need until now, because I didn't want to take a chance with a Radeon 9800, 2.8C, 2x 256MB Corsair XMS, 120GB 8mb cache, P4P800 Deluxe, and TV Tuner setup. I am keeping the case fan this time, but until now I haven't ever had one.

When I see people's rigs or pictures of their system, I notice many have lots of fans. I can understand two fans, one being intake and other outtake, but that is not even "necessary." Are some people just paranoid about this or am I missing something?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
For a good while, I ran 2 front fans, 2 rear, one side, 2 PSU, processor, video card, northbridge, and 2 HD coolers. All at full speed. I removed 2 of the 80mm fans, and noticed no temperature changes... Didn't change the noise output either though, this thing is still an F15.
 

sman789

Banned
May 6, 2003
1,038
0
0
i just added two well placed side fans...over the cpu and over the vid card while having a stock middle one....lowered the cpu temps 5+c and case 3+
 

hjo3

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
7,354
4
0
They probably add the useless extra fans because they think it's cool. Generally speaking, more air flow means lower temperatures and lower temps means longer hardware lifespan.

On most of my systems, I add in one 80 mm intake directed at the CPU. Helps a lot. I've perfected a method of using my dad's plasma cutter to make holes in side panels.
 

modedepe

Diamond Member
May 11, 2003
3,474
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0
The rig I'm using now has 1 intake fan that is ducted so the air will go to the fan on the processor. I also have 1 fan on my psu and 1 on my video card. This thing tends to run a bit hot, but not bad. I'm not running the fans at full speed but the thing is still far from quiet, though the majority of noise in my system is due to the hard drive, which happens to be the loudest one on the planet.
 

AgaBoogaBoo

Lifer
Feb 16, 2003
26,108
5
81
Originally posted by: sman789
i just added two well placed side fans...over the cpu and over the vid card while having a stock middle one....lowered the cpu temps 5+c and case 3+

Whats the point? If it was running stable and you still had some headroom in terms of temperatures, you're fine. My ambient temps have gone upto 100 with not blinds or curtains while I was o ut on a trip to Ohio and my system running. Came back, no problems, still crunching 2 instances of SETI@Home.
 

sman789

Banned
May 6, 2003
1,038
0
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to keep the room cooler, to protect my investments but yeah
i run my system wit a few fans...prolly just the psu case fan soon to cut down noise
but when i game i turn on my extra fans with a external psu
 

Mitzi

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2001
3,775
1
76
I have a Lian Li PC60 case which comes with 3 80mm case fans. Whilst I don't OC my system I still use these fans (on the lowest speed/noise setting) in normal operation, at this speed setting they are hardly audible above the noise of the CPU fan. On particularly hot days (yes we do get those in the UK) I knock the fan speed up a notch or two.
 

TheCorm

Diamond Member
Nov 5, 2000
4,326
0
0
I had a single 80mm fan in my Thunderbird 1000 system....then 2 in my XP 1800+ system and now 4 in my Barton 2500+ (o/c to 3000+) system...but these are LED fans so there is looks involved too.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
i run my 5 case fans at low rpm, it works out. they are smaller then 120mm so more are needed.

as for overclockers, you have to realize at extreme overclocks the heat output really goes way up drastically. read this thread for more

best to make sure things like your harddrives are running cool. less chance of failture ;)
 

RalfHutter

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2000
3,202
0
76
I think it's because of the "more = better" philosophy. Not to mention people probably thing that they should have a fan in every position where there's a fan grill on there case.


Personally, I want a quiet PC so I always experiment to see what's the least amount of fan(s) that I get get away with.

On my non-OCed P4 2.4C I'm running 1 120mm L1A at 5V and this keeps the system plenty cool.

On my OCed P4 running at 3.0GHz in an Antec SX1040 case I'm running 2 Panaflo L1As and that's plenty.
 

vegetation

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2001
4,270
2
0
Personally, I want a quiet PC so I always experiment to see what's the least amount of fan(s) that I get get away with.

That's what I do too, though I admit I used to be a cooling nut until I realized there's no point for me to do so. I really don't care if I chop off a few years to my system life expectancy, it's not like I'm going to be crying when my 8 year old system (if I even have it still) dies on me.
 

Davegod

Platinum Member
Nov 26, 2001
2,874
0
76
Originally posted by: sman789
to keep the room cooler, [...]

more fans wont make the room cooler, if anything they'll make the room warmer as they assist in distributing the heat from your pc to the rest of the room.

AgaBooga while i reckon youre right about a lot of people having much more airflow than necessary, some people run several quiet fans instead of fewer loud ones :)
 

Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
16,666
21
81
I say the only piece of hardware related to the PC that can be future proofed is the case. So when you have a wind tunnel for a case you are pretty much set for years to come.
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
Originally posted by: Regs
I say the only piece of hardware related to the PC that can be future proofed is the case. So when you have a wind tunnel for a case you are pretty much set for years to come.
I'm not so sure about that. We switched to ATX a few years ago. I think I saw an article somewhere about a new specification they're working on. Don't remember where or what though (getting old...failing memory :().
 

beatle

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2001
5,661
5
81
I had too many fans in my Q500. I had the obligatory front intake, then 2 side intakes, a rear exhaust below the PSU, and then 2 more above the PSU. After getting a real HSF combo (8045 + L1a) I stripped all but the 2 side intakes and let my PSU (also w/an L1a in it) serve as the lone exhaust. Temps have never been lower.
 

sman789

Banned
May 6, 2003
1,038
0
0
Originally posted by: Davegod
Originally posted by: sman789
to keep the room cooler, [...]

more fans wont make the room cooler, if anything they'll make the room warmer as they assist in distributing the heat from your pc to the rest of the room.

AgaBooga while i reckon youre right about a lot of people having much more airflow than necessary, some people run several quiet fans instead of fewer loud ones :)

if the air is noticibly cooler coming out the case with more fans wouldnt that help the room temp:confused::confused:
 
Apr 17, 2003
37,622
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i run very few fans, just 2 exhaust with the side panel open during the summer and 1 intake and 2 exhaust when the side panel is closed. the key is that the intake is a Smart Fan II which at max will push more air than most dual 80 mm fans
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Davegod
Originally posted by: sman789
to keep the room cooler, [...]

more fans wont make the room cooler, if anything they'll make the room warmer as they assist in distributing the heat from your pc to the rest of the room.

AgaBooga while i reckon youre right about a lot of people having much more airflow than necessary, some people run several quiet fans instead of fewer loud ones :)

how does that make sense. either you have a certain amount of hotter air going into your room from your pc, or a lot more cooler air. the total heat remains the same unless it somehow dissapears somewhere in the process, which it can't. its all the same. the difference is how long and how much of it do you want to build up inside of your case.

you cpu creates X watts of heat regardless of how lousy a job you do at cooling it. heat doesn't just build up inside your case until it melts. it goes into your room.
 

erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
9,739
0
0
i don't overclock, but i have 2 hdds and a pretty full case, i have 2 vantec stealth fans, 80mm, one in and one out. keeps a nice air flow going, i don't think this is overdoing it.
 

sharkeeper

Lifer
Jan 13, 2001
10,886
2
0
Fans aren't designed to lower the temperature on their own. Instead, they augment the convective (airflow) process of a radiator and improve efficiency. When used in a cubic enclosure, they help to equalise the temperature of the air within to that of the surrounding environment. Since the cube is never empty, brute force is needed to overcome these obstacles. It works up to the point of diminishing return obviously.

-DAK-
 

rtcpenguin

Member
May 18, 2002
58
0
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
For a good while, I ran 2 front fans, 2 rear, one side, 2 PSU, processor, video card, northbridge, and 2 HD coolers. All at full speed. I removed 2 of the 80mm fans, and noticed no temperature changes... Didn't change the noise output either though, this thing is still an F15.
Hehe. I noticed the same thing with my computer (in an Antec SX1030 case). The temperature difference between two and fours fans (two in back vs two in back AND front) was negligible, however adding a PSU with a fan did lower temperatures. My theory is that input fans dont increase airflow if they spin at the same rate as output fans. Plus with only output fans, you always have the negative pressure thing going, which is good.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
not really. negative pressure draws in dust esp if you have no filters. having two intake and two exhaust at the same speed is good in that it lets you run them at lower rpms and still push decent air.

from dansdata.com
Fans 101
The humble fan is the most important cooling component in most PCs. Without it, there'd be little to no air flow through the case. Fans can blow air into the computer, suck air out, or just move air around inside. The fan on your CPU heatsink is a perfect example of the last kind; its sole purpose is to improve the effectiveness of the heatsink by increasing the airflow over it. These internal fans do nothing to lower the temperature of the air inside the computer - in fact, they slightly raise it - but they make that air do more work.

This is only any use, though, if the air is constantly being replaced with cooler outside air. As the air flowing over a heatsink approaches the temperature of the heatsink, its cooling efficiency drops. When the temperatures are the same, no cooling happens at all - you can blow all the 50 degree Centigrade air you like over a 50 degree Centigrade heatsink and nothing's going to happen.

Standard power supply fans suck air out of the computer and create the familiar warm breeze out of the back of your PC. Sucker fans are not what you want next to your hot components, because the air they move has already passed by other warm bits of computer, and is thus already warmer. A blower fan, on the other hand, delivers air from outside the box straight to whatever it's blowing on, and thus does more cooling for a given size.

In the official ATX specification, it says that the power supply fan should blow air into the case, towards the motherboard. Since this guarantees a steady flow of pre-heated air from the nice toasty PSU, many ATX case manufacturers ignore the spec and use power supplies with the traditional blow-out fan.

Many cases also have provision for a second fan, usually (in tower configuration cases) at the bottom front of the case. If you've got a dinky little mini-tower case with no extra fan mount spot and your computer has heat problems, get a better case. Full stop. If you've got a name brand PC and you can't change the case, I feel for you.

Front-of-case fans in most situations have a pretty hard time of it. They're usually trying to suck air through a fairly narrow vent in the plastic face plate and through a more-steel-than-holes grille in the front panel. Classier cases often have a dust filter as well, which lets the air through fairly well when clean but rapidly clogs to the approximate permeability of a blanket. Add to that the fact that the plastic cages that hold front-of-case fans practically never actually seal the fan against the front panel but instead leave it a half-centimetre or so into the case, so lots of air can leak around the sides, and it's amazing that most front-of-case fans do anything at all.


Check out this cruft, from the front grille of my old case after maybe a year of service. Filter? We don' need no steenkin' filter!


You can improve the situation somewhat by sealing around your front fan with cloth-backed Gaffa (or "duct") tape, like so:



If you're feeling more adventurous but don't want to go the whole hog and fit a bigger fan, you can also cut out the metal in the front fan grille and chop a couple of extra vent holes in the plastic front panel.

If two case fans are close to each other, they should both blow or both suck. Otherwise there'll be a storm of cooling air near the fans and not enough air movement elsewhere. If two fans are located away from each other, though, one should blow and one should suck, or they'll be trying vainly to change the air pressure inside the case and will lose a lot of efficiency.

A fan will deliver its maximum airflow when it's hanging in space - the so-called "free air" situation. It will deliver its minimum airflow - zero - when it's blowing into a sealed box. In the sealed box situation, all the fan can do is move a bit of air into the box, increasing the air pressure inside, and keep it there. These two kinds of fan behaviour are governed by the two fan performance statistics - pressure and airflow.

All computer fans are roughly the same shape, so their pressure and airflow statistics are roughly proportional to their size and thickness. Different kinds of air moving apparatus have different pressure to flow ratios - a "blower", for instance, which uses an enclosed impeller to push air out of a port, has a higher pressure rating but lower airflow than a fan of equal power. A hair dryer is a good example of a blower. It's also possible to buy small 12 volt blowers which can be used in computer applications, mounted inside the case to direct a well-aimed stream of air at something that needs cooling, like a CPU.

A computer case is neither a free air nor a sealed box situation. A really well ventilated case looks to the fan pretty much like the free air situation; the more tightly buttoned up and packed with cables the case is, the more like a sealed box it behaves. The lousy mounting locations of many case fans don't really make a lot of difference to the behaviour of the box, but they reduce the effectiveness of the fan; a poorly mounted fan behaves like a less powerful one.

Arranging fans physically in parallel - next to each other, blowing in the same direction - gives twice the airflow, but only in the free air situation. The closer the thing they're blowing into is to a sealed box - the higher the "system resistance" - the smaller the parallel fan improvement becomes. Any number of identical parallel fans blowing into a sealed box will do no more than a single fan.

Arranging fans in series - stacked on top of each other, so one blows straight into the other - gives the opposite situation. There's no improvement in free-air performance, but double the pressure increase in a sealed box, and better and better performance compared to parallel fans as the system resistance gets higher and higher. Incidentally, this means that those goofy monster processor heatsinks with layered low-profile fans are a waste of money, since fans strapped onto a heatsink are very nearly in the free-air situation, and putting two layers of them there does close to nothing to the airflow.

So series fans can pump more air into a box with poor through-flow, but parallel fans will do better in a box with high through-flow. When you arrange one fan blowing into a computer and another sucking out, you're basically making a poorly sealed serial fan arrangement. The PC box leaks all over the place, so not all of the air the blowing fan puts into it exits through the sucking fan, but the arrangement is much more like serial fans than like parallel ones. This is good; it keeps the airflow up even in the card-and-cable-packed mess that is many PCs.

The exact fan arrangement to use therefore varies with the box, if you?re going for maximum efficiency. The easy way around the problem is simply to go for overkill, mount much more powerful fans than you need, and have done with it. That's certainly what I settled on. As long as the fans aren't blowing components out of the back of the computer, the problem is solved. The problems with this solution are that big fans are more expensive, computer power supplies can be overtaxed by multiple fans (a problem you can solve by using a mains powered fan), and big fans make more noise than many users will tolerate.

12 volt fans with a three-pin connector plug into the special three-pin headers on recent motherboards and can thus report their rotation speed - if the speed drops, an alarm can sound. Some fans have the three pin plug but only two wires; they'll run from a motherboard fan connection, but won't report their speed.

In the near future, we should be seeing PCs with efficient ducted cooling built in. Ducts allow the cooling air to go where it's needed, and some fanatical overclockers already use duct arrangements of varying degrees of gimcrackness to keep their sweating and terrified components cool.

 

chocoruacal

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2002
1,197
0
0
Originally posted by: AgaBooga

When I see people's rigs or pictures of their system, I notice many have lots of fans. I can understand two fans, one being intake and other outtake, but that is not even "necessary." Are some people just paranoid about this or am I missing something?

Thats because sites like this are stocked with teenage males. Teenage males have lots of insecurities....they make up for these insecurities in very strange ways. In the relm of computers, specifically cases, this is accomplished thru:

Plexi windows
Minimum of 8 case fans
Lights
Fan grills

Etc., etc. Don't worry though...hope is right around the corner...once you're free of the bonds of puberty, you'll simply stuff your ugly PC case under the desk like a normal person :D :)