I did not cut and paste one word of any post in this thread, and I'll hand enter this, as well...
:lips: my (_!_)
Sorry if you can't handle the truth about your Traitor In Chief murdering 4,000 (and rising) American troops.
I did not cut and paste one word of any post in this thread, and I'll hand enter this, as well...
:lips: my (_!_)
Sorry if you can't handle the truth about your Traitor In Chief murdering 4,000 (and rising) American troops.
Blackangst, thanks but you lost me - what does my post having to do with thinking being a soldier is like being a banker?
Of course being a soldier is about killing. The issue is between it being about violence for the sort of justified causes we like to think of - Revolutionary War, WWII - versus being for the sorts of wars that are for lesser justification, I'll put up the old quote from Gen. Smedley Butler again as an example:
You ask if I've ever seen the military as other than a giant killing machine. I don't see it that way now.
There's so much logical trouble I see here - pointing out the problems with the military doesn't make it 'nothing but a giant killing machine'.
It reminds me of a post I saw here tonight saying 'the US is not altruistic'. I don't think you can say it or isn't; you can find many cases of each, and yet people seem to respond to examples of either with trying to say it simply is or isn't altruistic, when saying it is or isn't is inaccurate for the other examples.
The point simply is that the US military is a force, and that it can be used and misused, and it's my opinion that in our current situation, anyone who joins it is at risk for being misused.
And I think the price is very high, no different than simply letting someone turn you into a murderer, with a very nice set of ideology to make it seem otherwise.
And I say that while acknowledging all kinds of positives about the military, too. The quote from Butler above doesn't mean he hated the military, either.
But in today's situation, I think it's highly irresponsible for anyone to let others tell them who to kill, much less the problem of their own life being risked.
I think if our government found itself unable to recruit for the military until there was a real clear danger, our nation would be better off.
My own liberal Congressman, Pete Stark, a veteran, said the same basic message to some high schoolers not long ago - don't join.
EXman
Lifer
- Jul 12, 2001
- 20,079
- 15
- 81
Well there are ten of thousands of Vietnam vets that think pulling out now they will be dying in vain. What was it something like 58,700 soldiers died in vietnam. Those Vets left and left many of there friends behind due to politics and politicains running the war ass backwards.
It is hard to get away from corruption. Good luck. If you really want to stay away from corruption you would do best to avoid all govt jobs.
I'm a medic in the U.S. Army and have been in for over 20 years. Posting this on P&N will get you the requisite 'anti's' and 'pro's', and after reading them, some with plenty of vitriol. Having a career in the military will mean that it will span various administrations. I've been in numerous theaters and operations that have been supported or railed against by the right and left, alike.
Most, but not all, of the posters on this thread will only type their opinions. They will rarely actually do anything. You are looking at an opportunity to perform real deeds. There will be restrictions; a left-and-right limit, if you will. There is risk. There are ways to mitigate that risk, too. At the end of the day, some of the ideals that you possess and hold true will be the things that guide your judgment when you perform your deeds.
From my perspective, the military has made me terrified of failing my comrades. I think that's the most notable change I've seen in myself since I joined at 17 years old.
Good luck.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
No, a soldier never dies in vain. He dies for his country and for freedom, even if it's in a bogus war and he shouldn't be there to begin with!
IMO, military is a crap profession. I'm glad as hell we are in a society in which I never had to and never will have to take up a gun to shoot somebody who in another situation I could share beer with. Going away for 15 months while my kids grow up not knowing me except in pictures? Come back to a wife who sees me as a prick now (because I am one) and I have mental problems? Not much money? Geeze, what is there not to like?! (I realize I'm generalizing a bit
).
FWIW my brother was in the naval reserves in Canada and excelling in them in a big way. They wanted him badly to join up full time and ultimately he rejected it. His main reasons are that he was sick of being told what to do all the time and felt that most of the people in the military--not all, but most--are idiots. We cannot ignore the fact that military is often the recourse of somebody who doesn't know what else to do, so it's no stretch (even if it's not PC, I couldn't give a sh*t about that here, though) to think that the average intelligence of somebody in the military is nothing that's going to win any intelligence tests. Go joint the army, go save a kid from a terrorist and give him a bear and some candy after, he'll love you for it. It's not like you cannot help kids in your own city.
IMO, military is a crap profession. I'm glad as hell we are in a society in which I never had to and never will have to take up a gun to shoot somebody who in another situation I could share beer with. Going away for 15 months while my kids grow up not knowing me except in pictures? Come back to a wife who sees me as a prick now (because I am one) and I have mental problems? Not much money? Geeze, what is there not to like?! (I realize I'm generalizing a bit
).FWIW my brother was in the naval reserves in Canada and excelling in them in a big way. They wanted him badly to join up full time and ultimately he rejected it. His main reasons are that he was sick of being told what to do all the time and felt that most of the people in the military--not all, but most--are idiots. We cannot ignore the fact that military is often the recourse of somebody who doesn't know what else to do, so it's no stretch (even if it's not PC, I couldn't give a sh*t about that here, though) to think that the average intelligence of somebody in the military is nothing that's going to win any intelligence tests.
Oh come on, we do something. For one we go to work and pay taxes so that you can go over and do "real deeds" that we can only talk about. I guess having a job and kids who I can see every night and who know me is not a real deed. You sound like a commercial
Go joint the army, go save a kid from a terrorist and give him a bear and some candy after, he'll love you for it. It's not like you cannot help kids in your own city.Yes. Any death - and any death you CAUSE - as a soldier in today's military, in today's situations, is in vain.
If our nation were ever truly threatened, then defending our homeland would be entirely justified. But "military actions" across the world are defending nothing but an arrogant, misguided foreign policy of US dominance.
Most of us finally realize that Iraq was a mistake. What is harder to accept is that even our "justified" military actions - like Afganistan - may be the right thing to do NOW, but is ultimately a situation that WE had a great hand in bringing about.
If/when the military's function once again becomes defending the people of the United States in legitimate and critical need, then I would whole-heartedly suggest it. But if you think you are "paying the price for freedom" by dying in Iraq, you are simply naive.
And as to the grieving widow, you're DAMN RIGHT I would tell them that their husbands died because of a tyrannical fool of a President and a Congress full of cowards who are willing to pay for their games with the blood of American lives. I would tell her that her husband died with honor, but the honor came because of HIS ideals, and not the cause for which he served.
Now what would YOU tell the widows of the thousands and thousands of Iraqis who have died?
If our nation were ever truly threatened, then defending our homeland would be entirely justified. But "military actions" across the world are defending nothing but an arrogant, misguided foreign policy of US dominance.
Most of us finally realize that Iraq was a mistake. What is harder to accept is that even our "justified" military actions - like Afganistan - may be the right thing to do NOW, but is ultimately a situation that WE had a great hand in bringing about.
If/when the military's function once again becomes defending the people of the United States in legitimate and critical need, then I would whole-heartedly suggest it. But if you think you are "paying the price for freedom" by dying in Iraq, you are simply naive.
And as to the grieving widow, you're DAMN RIGHT I would tell them that their husbands died because of a tyrannical fool of a President and a Congress full of cowards who are willing to pay for their games with the blood of American lives. I would tell her that her husband died with honor, but the honor came because of HIS ideals, and not the cause for which he served.
Now what would YOU tell the widows of the thousands and thousands of Iraqis who have died?
The military is a way of life as much as a job. You either like it, adjust to it or leave. A lot of people sign up for one tour (Enlistment) and then decide it is not for them. However, in time of war, they can extend your tour of duty. If you are in good shape and you think that is what you want to do, try it. My suggestion is sign up for as short of a tour of duty as possible. Also make sure you know what the specialty is and does before you sign up.
I see no future for signing up for Infantry, because you are not learning any useful civilian skills. If you want to go for a lot of long walks outside in the snow, heat, rain and sun at all hours of the day, with a 50+ pound of supplies strapped to your back, then maybe the military and infrantry life is for you. Probably more money to be made as a civilian contractor in Iraq.
I see no future for signing up for Infantry, because you are not learning any useful civilian skills. If you want to go for a lot of long walks outside in the snow, heat, rain and sun at all hours of the day, with a 50+ pound of supplies strapped to your back, then maybe the military and infrantry life is for you. Probably more money to be made as a civilian contractor in Iraq.
ericlp
Diamond Member
- Dec 24, 2000
- 6,133
- 219
- 106
I went into the military at a young age....
I didn't care for it at all... But it did keep me out of a lot of trouble... Anyway, this was when the National Guard was suppose to fight at home... The Whole idea behind the national guard (told to me).... You were suppose to take care of disasters like floods, earthquakes, riots ... That sort of crap... And of course... the kicker was if the enemy (whoever that was) actually made it to our borders we were told to protect that as well. I was told you don't get to fight wars I mean, yeah, I suppose you would go fight a war *IF* it was totally bad and drafted everyone .... But this war is a losers war. I don't even call it a war. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, don't let them tell you anything .... Since your ass is going at any time or any place. That is one reason I joined is to help people here.... I think it's stupid to be sending the NG and Reserve forces since.... When a really big disaster strikes who's gonna be around?
I also think that it's going to be harder to fill NG/Reserve positions after pulling this stunt, maybe they will make a new unit for disasters here at home... don't know... don't care, been out of the NG for some time now. I use to tell everyone that the military is a good deal. Now, I have changed my tune. I just tell them that's up to you. That's a choice your going to have to make on your own. Since, what would happen if you told that person yeah! Go! It's great and then you find out that he/she died? Oh joy!
I am no war supporter I think it was a stupid decision to go. War should be the LAST option not the first...
Good Luck to you.. Whatever choice you make...
I didn't care for it at all...
But it did keep me out of a lot of trouble... Anyway, this was when the National Guard was suppose to fight at home... The Whole idea behind the national guard (told to me).... You were suppose to take care of disasters like floods, earthquakes, riots ... That sort of crap... And of course... the kicker was if the enemy (whoever that was) actually made it to our borders we were told to protect that as well. I was told you don't get to fight wars I mean, yeah, I suppose you would go fight a war *IF* it was totally bad and drafted everyone .... But this war is a losers war. I don't even call it a war. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, don't let them tell you anything .... Since your ass is going at any time or any place. That is one reason I joined is to help people here.... I think it's stupid to be sending the NG and Reserve forces since.... When a really big disaster strikes who's gonna be around? I also think that it's going to be harder to fill NG/Reserve positions after pulling this stunt, maybe they will make a new unit for disasters here at home... don't know... don't care, been out of the NG for some time now. I use to tell everyone that the military is a good deal. Now, I have changed my tune. I just tell them that's up to you. That's a choice your going to have to make on your own. Since, what would happen if you told that person yeah! Go! It's great and then you find out that he/she died? Oh joy!
I am no war supporter I think it was a stupid decision to go. War should be the LAST option not the first...
Good Luck to you.. Whatever choice you make...
Originally posted by: ericlp
I went into the military at a young age....
I didn't care for it at all...
I also think that it's going to be harder to fill NG/Reserve positions after pulling this stunt, maybe they will make a new unit for disasters here at home... don't know... don't care, been out of the NG for some time now. I use to tell everyone that the military is a good deal. Now, I have changed my tune. I just tell them that's up to you. That's a choice your going to have to make on your own. Since, what would happen if you told that person yeah! Go! It's great and then you find out that he/she died? Oh joy!
I am no war supporter I think it was a stupid decision to go. War should be the LAST option not the first...
Good Luck to you.. Whatever choice you make...
1 photo to sum it up
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
That's not true at all for enlisted types.
As an officer, though, depending on your entrance exam scores, and your top-3 list of choices, you're much more at the mercy of "Needs of the Army." Still, if you score high enough, you may be able to branch MI straight out of OCS. Worst case scenario will be as you guessed -- you might have to do something else for a little while, but you can ALWAYS do a branch-transfer to MI later!!
If I could do it all over again, and I was young, motivated, and single, I'd do it like this:
Army enlisted Infantryman -> airborne -> ranger -> Special forces, with primary: Intel, secondary: weapons, for a few years -> Special Mission Unit(s) -> OCS -or- retire and join civilian intelligence agency.
I've ended up in the same place, but the route(s) I personally took to get here were much less... direct... LOL!
JUST DONT GO REAL INTEL -OR- SPECIAL FORCES IF YOU DONT WANT TO WORK YOUR ASS OFF 25 HOURS/DAY... your heart and body REALLY have to be in it, or don't bother...
Remember this though: You ALWAYS fight, and possibly die, for the men and women with you. Everything else - the political nonsense, altruistic rhetotic, media judgements, etc - is secondary. You'll realize this the first moment you ever enter combat; and, if you're smart, you'll hold onto that knowledge forever.
Everything you do from that point on must be done from that perspective. If you ever stop and try to place yourself within the context of some intangible "bigger picture," you'll quickly get lost and flounder. So, just keep your eyes on yourself and your team, and you'll be fine. If/when you move on to a strategic position, never forget who it is you're really fighting for... once again, the men and women who are with you.. the warfighters..
Good luck!
Edit: I didn't realize this part...
uhgg.. ok... well then, just do the Candian equivelant of what I suggested.
And, since you would only ever go to Afghanistan, and probably never to Iraq, then know this: The mission in Afghanistan is noble and justified, and we ARE making a positive difference throughout most of their country. Don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.
Atreus21
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2007
- 12,007
- 572
- 126
Originally posted by: ericlp
I went into the military at a young age....
I didn't care for it at all...
I also think that it's going to be harder to fill NG/Reserve positions after pulling this stunt, maybe they will make a new unit for disasters here at home... don't know... don't care, been out of the NG for some time now. I use to tell everyone that the military is a good deal. Now, I have changed my tune. I just tell them that's up to you. That's a choice your going to have to make on your own. Since, what would happen if you told that person yeah! Go! It's great and then you find out that he/she died? Oh joy!
I am no war supporter I think it was a stupid decision to go. War should be the LAST option not the first...
Good Luck to you.. Whatever choice you make...
About war being the last option.
There are times when war is and should be the first resort.
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