are obama and gwb any different on afghanistan?

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Of course it's different. He is a Democrat staying the course. Mission accomplished.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
“But I reject the notion that the Afghan people don’t want some of the basic things that everybody wants: basic rule of law, a voice in governance, economic opportunity, basic physical security, electricity, roads, an ability to get a harvest to market without having to pay too many bribes in between,"

Wrong. They don't want those things.
 

dammitgibs

Senior member
Jan 31, 2009
477
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No, but Obama's done a helluva lot more drone strikes in Pakistan than GWB!
obama-drone-attacks.jpg
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,929
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“But I reject the notion that the Afghan people don’t want some of the basic things that everybody wants: basic rule of law, a voice in governance, economic opportunity, basic physical security, electricity, roads, an ability to get a harvest to market without having to pay too many bribes in between,"

Wrong. They don't want those things.

Nebor, the truly UGLY American.
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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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There's one important difference: one started the war and chose to make it an occupation instead of a search and destroy operation. The other inherited a situation in process.

IMO, the basic error in Afghanistan is the way it was approached from the outset. We should have gone in with overwhelming force, on the ground, and killed as many AQ and Taliban as possible, then gotten the hell out. Instead, Bush chose to go in with a minimal ground footprint and support a rebel faction, then stay there and nation build.

If you posit that this strategy was wrong, the question becomes should Obama have just pulled out in 2009, given that it was by then too late to use what would have been the better strategy. What he actually decided to do, based on advice from the military that the operation had at least a reasonable chance of success, was to continue the occupation but with proper recources. On a cost/benefit, the argument could be made either way. However, the decision of what to do in 2009 is not at all comparable to the decisions that were made in 2001. What Obama would have done had he been in office in 2001 is anyone's guess.

- wolf
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Nebor, the truly UGLY American.
icon8.gif

Sorry, but assuming that they want a western lifestyle doesn't make it so. They're one of the oldest civilizations in the world. They're backwards because they want to be backwards.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
eDid Mr Bush, go into Afghanistan because that country was hosting the group that was responsible for the Sept 11, 2001 attacks on the US and then redirected resources to invading Iraq. Thus leaving Afghanistan vulnerably to attack by the Taliban and AQ?
 
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Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/39080.html

After reading that article I feel like I'm at a loss... I was genuinely wondering if Obama's plan to stay the course is any different than GWB's plan to stay the course.

Not really different on Afghanistan, nor Iraq, nor dealing with the financial crisis. For better or worse, there is never THAT much difference between presidents (hence why outsiders like Kucinich or Paul can't ever become president). Makes the blowhards screaming about him being a pinko commie socialist that much more ridiculous.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
There's one important difference: one started the war and chose to make it an occupation instead of a search and destroy operation. The other inherited a situation in process.

IMO, the basic error in Afghanistan is the way it was approached from the outset. We should have gone in with overwhelming force, on the ground, and killed as many AQ and Taliban as possible, then gotten the hell out. Instead, Bush chose to go in with a minimal ground footprint and support a rebel faction, then stay there and nation build.

If you posit that this strategy was wrong, the question becomes should Obama have just pulled out in 2009, given that it was by then too late to use what would have been the better strategy. What he actually decided to do, based on advice from the military that the operation had at least a reasonable chance of success, was to continue the occupation but with proper recources. On a cost/benefit, the argument could be made either way. However, the decision of what to do in 2009 is not at all comparable to the decisions that were made in 2001. What Obama would have done had he been in office in 2001 is anyone's guess.

- wolf
Had we gone in with overwhelming force then we would now be fighting the whole nation. That is the lesson that the Brits and Soviets learned the hard way and we learned the easy way - the Afghans do not fold under pressure and will happily fight gunships with RPGs or even muzzle loaders if necessary.

Sorry, but assuming that they want a western lifestyle doesn't make it so. They're one of the oldest civilizations in the world. They're backwards because they want to be backwards.
Quite true. Westerners tend to see everyone else as having the same values as ourselves. The Afghan people are as far from our values as it is possible to be.

Did Mr Bush, go into Afghanistan because that country was hosting the group that was responsible for the Sept 11, 2001 attacks on the US and then redirected resources to invading Iraq. Thus leaving Afghanistan vulnerably to attack by the Taliban and AQ?
Idiot, the Taliban was running Afghanistan before the Northern Alliance and the US/Brit military under Bush chased them out. The whole point of fighting the way we did was to avoid making the British and Soviet mistake of being seen as an invasion rather than as an ally. We didn't leave Afghanistan vulnerable to attack by the Taliban, we helped the Northern Alliance to push out the Taliban in return for setting up a democracy and stepped aside to allow them to develop their government with our assistance.

As to difference - Obama is conducting more Predator strikes in Pakistan as noted, which is a good thing as long as Pakistan tacitly agrees. He also set a date on which combat will be over, which automatically makes the Taliban the winner over us - all they have to do is remain in the fight, in any capacity, until we pull out and they have defeated us. This seems like a very, very bad thing indeed. But there is a chance that the Afghans will step up and defeat the Taliban on their own, in which case the Messiah's end date might turn out to be a good thing. It lends itself to the view that the USA is a paper tiger without the heart for the long war, but also might save US soldiers' lives. Let's all hope and pray that the Afghan government does step up and defeat the Taliban after we leave or, failing that, that Obama will decide to stay until the situation rather than the calender dictates our departure.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Had we gone in with overwhelming force then we would now be fighting the whole nation. That is the lesson that the Brits and Soviets learned the hard way and we learned the easy way - the Afghans do not fold under pressure and will happily fight gunships with RPGs or even muzzle loaders if necessary.


Quite true. Westerners tend to see everyone else as having the same values as ourselves. The Afghan people are as far from our values as it is possible to be.


Idiot, the Taliban was running Afghanistan before the Northern Alliance and the US/Brit military under Bush chased them out. The whole point of fighting the way we did was to avoid making the British and Soviet mistake of being seen as an invasion rather than as an ally. We didn't leave Afghanistan vulnerable to attack by the Taliban, we helped the Northern Alliance to push out the Taliban in return for setting up a democracy and stepped aside to allow them to develop their government with our assistance.

As to difference - Obama is conducting more Predator strikes in Pakistan as noted, which is a good thing as long as Pakistan tacitly agrees. He also set a date on which combat will be over, which automatically makes the Taliban the winner over us - all they have to do is remain in the fight, in any capacity, until we pull out and they have defeated us. This seems like a very, very bad thing indeed. But there is a chance that the Afghans will step up and defeat the Taliban on their own, in which case the Messiah's end date might turn out to be a good thing. It lends itself to the view that the USA is a paper tiger without the heart for the long war, but also might save US soldiers' lives. Let's all hope and pray that the Afghan government does step up and defeat the Taliban after we leave or, failing that, that Obama will decide to stay until the situation rather than the calender dictates our departure.

Well said.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Now that is has been verified and confirmed that there are trillions of dollars worth of minerals in Afghanistan... the U.S. isn't leaving anytime soon. Otherwise Russia or China would stroll right in. Sad but true.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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I've thought Obama was more pro-war than Bush and McCain ever since I saw the speech of him saying that the Democrats were the party of FDR and LBJ (the one where he said that if Bush and the GOP could chase Bin Laden into a cave, then Obama and the Democrats could chase him to the gates of Hell). Ever since then, I've believed Obama will reinstate the draft.

Like the Ron Paul supporter I am, I knew before Obama was elected that he supported the Iraq War.
 

DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
2,262
326
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http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/06/25/2293860/the-ore-on-terror.html
By ED WALLACE

I have been extremely gratified by e-mails readers have sent over the years responding to my columns. As many already know, I am far more interested in our social and economic wellbeing than in the nation's politics or ideology. Likewise, I don't see our auto industry as just an isolated business, maybe capable of little more than delivering an exciting new family sedan that manages 33 mpg (highway) within the next two years.

No, just like every other industry that uses natural resources and employs people, the auto industry is interwoven with all the others; and so is every critical situation and every major event that happens in America. You need look no further than the ongoing spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

Some worried that it would raise the price of gasoline (more money out of your pocket to drive), or cause economic disaster along our coasts (more taxpayer monies lost in cleanup and bailouts, diminished incomes and tax revenues by businesses there). Some worry about the moratorium it has incited on new drilling -- yes, jobs and incomes and revenues lost.

Some want to use the Gulf crisis to end our demand for unlimited energy sources for our vehicles. Others simply want to string up those most responsible for the disaster. But if you look at the motivation behind the aspects of that one particular disaster, you see someone wanting to use an accident to change somebody else's lifestyle, occupation or income.

All over a regrettable and tragic accident, but one that has happened repeatedly since the earliest days of the oil industry. One has only to look at many regions of the Baku Oil Fields today to see a decades-old environmental disaster, stunning in scope.

But possibly the worst disaster to come out of the Baku region wasn't a spill. For 100 years ago the Communists used the wealth from that oil to plan and disseminate their propaganda across Russia to foster a revolution.

Cost, Benefit, Balance

Yes, the price of oil worldwide was abnormally cheap for decades because access to Baku crude was so easy. But what the multi-decade Cold War standoff -- driven by the rise of Communism in Russia -- cost us was in no way offset by those low oil prices.

Likewise, few know that just before World War I Joseph Stalin fled to Baku. There he organized the deaths of many right-wing supporters of the Czar, ran protection rackets, kidnapped the wealthy for ransom and learned the art of counterfeiting. Every undesirable stratagem he would use against the Russian people and the world for the next three decades was funded by the Baku Fields' oil wealth.

This is where one has to be able to create balance and understand cost/benefit analysis.

Ultimately, we see oil as nothing more than how cheap our gasoline is or isn't. We know that most major recessions of the last 60 years have all been foreshadowed by a serious rise in the price of oil, but most Americans have never connected those two events. The fact is we were going to have a recession once oil hit $147 a barrel in 2008, with or without the financial system going into meltdown. That was a secondary event, though it made the situation infinitely worse.


Beginning early in the last decade, there were three major factors that guaranteed a major oil spike would cause disproportionate problems.

1. Incomes were not just frozen for the better part of the decade, they were falling against the rate of inflation.

2. That meant that discretionary incomes for normal consumer spending were being shrunk by the quickly rising commodity prices, of which gasoline was just one part.

3. In order to fund their normal lifestyles, many Americans went into debt, including borrowing massive amounts from the equity in their homes.

Those three lines crossed when the debt became unsustainable against incomes, causing discretionary spending to collapse just as oil prices spiked.

Since economists still argue about what really happened, it's not surprising that they can't see how Congressional reform of the system (as proposed) will keep it from happening again.

Deficit-Fueled Hypocrisy

Two months ago my friend Dennis McCuistion, host of the show of the same name on KERA Channel 13, invited me to a luncheon with WBAP's Mark Davis. Dennis and I talk on a regular basis; Mark I see less often, but I enjoy both men's company. Dennis is certainly out there promoting fiscal responsibility and waving the warning flag on the federal deficit, while Mark is concerned about the high level of taxation, which is likely to go higher in the future.

Me, I'm just tired of the hypocrisy. In fact, seven years ago, I got possibly the nastiest e-mail I've ever received on a column about hypocrisy. The author said she had just been to a Christmas party at which they'd passed around my then most recent Star-Telegram column and all had a good laugh. She simply wanted me to know that I was the laughingstock of Fort Worth.

Personally I was astonished, and not that I was the laughingstock of Fort Worth. It seemed more than a little insane to me that anyone would read my column out loud at a Christmas party, when they could have been singing carols or kissing under the mistletoe.

But I remember what that column was about; the foolishness of the Iraq War. At least for the reasons we claimed we were fighting it.

Yes, I compared President Bush to a used car salesperson who was low-balling a buyer to sell them a piece of junk. But do you recall the president's sales pitch? He said it would cost us only $50 billion -- Iraq would pay the rest out of their oil revenues. I stated the war would not be over in a few months and would cost far, far in excess of the publicly stated costs. And if Iraqis wanted to be safe during the heaviest combat, they should hide under an oil pipeline, because that was the only place we wouldn't bomb.

Now it's seven years later, $1 trillion has been spent, and few people deny that the war simply opened up the world's last great easy oilfields.

I don't mean to be callous, but today I wonder whether the environmental damage to the Gulf of Mexico will exceed the real damage done in Iraq.

Don't Forget the Poppy Fields

I do remember telling Dennis McCuistion that one thing that drives me nuts about the national cry over the deficit is that, when it was really going through the roof years ago, the same individuals that are so mad about it today slammed those who first raised the warnings.

Then two weeks ago, an astonished media informed us that we have stumbled across a gold mine in Afghanistan. Really, it turns out the place is full of gold. Not to mention copper, iron, cobalt and lithium; the Pentagon put the value figure for all those minerals at $1 trillion. Three days later, Wahidullah Shahrani, the Minister of Mines for Afghanistan, said that their mineral wealth was worth possibly $3 trillion. Now how lucky is that?

We have two wars going, ostensibly against terrorists who attacked us on 9/11, and those fanatics "accidentally pulled" us into the richest untapped oil fields in the world, followed quickly by the richest untapped mineral fields in the world. Isn't that a coincidence?

The only problem with that report about the Afghan mineral wealth on June 14th? The primary information was posted on the Web site of the United States Geological Survey two years ago. It was not new "news" at all, except to the media.

Saving Pvt. Energizer® Bunny™

It gets even better. On March 14, 2006, the USGS published its assessment of the Afghan petroleum and natural gas resource base. It included these two lines: "The assessment was conducted over the past two years, with funding provided by the U.S. Trade and Development Agency. The estimates increase the oil resources by 18 times and more than triple the natural gas resources."

Oh, this just keeps getting better and better. Turns out the USGS published its "Mines and Mineral Occurrences of Afghanistan," the prelude to the last two reports, back in 2002. Mere months after Al Qaeda fled Tora Bora for Pakistan.

See, it wasn't just soldiers we were sending into those danger zones, but also geologists and petroleum engineers. And when one journalist wrote excitedly that this discovery of major deposits of lithium in Afghanistan would be great for the coming electric car era -- to be honest, I sat there numb, unable to frame coherently my contempt for what he had written.

I always knew Iraq was about oil. It was confirmed when a court case forced Dick Cheney to release the maps of the oil fields in Iraq that he had divided up between oil executives in 2001 -- before 9/11. But I hoped against hope that Afghanistan was about the war on terror. Now we are being told to just chalk it up as a future American victory for the cellular phone, laptop computer and electric car industry.

And for that we're spending trillions?

Great. We used to claim we were making the world safe for democracy. Now we're making the world safe for iPhones and Chevy Volts.

© 2010 Ed Wallace

Ed Wallace has received the Gerald R. Loeb Award for business journalism, given by the Anderson School of Business at UCLA, and is a member of the American Historical Association. He reviews new cars every Friday morning at 7:15 on Fox Four's Good Day, frequently contributes articles to BusinessWeek Online and hosts the top-rated talk show, Wheels, 8:00 to 1:00 Saturdays on 570 KLIF. E-mail: wheels570 @sbcglobal.net; access all of Ed's work at his Web site, www.insideautomotive.com.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Had we gone in with overwhelming force then we would now be fighting the whole nation. That is the lesson that the Brits and Soviets learned the hard way and we learned the easy way - the Afghans do not fold under pressure and will happily fight gunships with RPGs or even muzzle loaders if necessary.

Bush's strategy of supporting the northern alliance, and the small footprint, were calculated based on the assumption that we would have long term involvement aimed at nation building. Those tactics were correct, assuming the premise that we wanted to stay and nation build. I am suggesting that the purpose of the mission should instead have been search and destroy, with a total departure in no more than a few months. And the evidence suggests that we could have done a much better job in killing AQ and Taliban had we taken that approach. As it was, we let about a third of them go, and that third was able to scatter, hide, then regroup after a few years, and they are now co-mingled with the populace so that it is nigh impossible to eliminate them, especially without heavy collateral damage, which in turn is contrary to our long term nation building plan. That would not have happened had we not chosen the initial small footprint. The concern about "fighting the whole nation" is only relevant if you're sticking around.

- wolf
 
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Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Had we gone in with overwhelming force then we would now be fighting the whole nation. That is the lesson that the Brits and Soviets learned the hard way and we learned the easy way - the Afghans do not fold under pressure and will happily fight gunships with RPGs or even muzzle loaders if necessary.


Quite true. Westerners tend to see everyone else as having the same values as ourselves. The Afghan people are as far from our values as it is possible to be.


Idiot, the Taliban was running Afghanistan before the Northern Alliance and the US/Brit military under Bush chased them out. The whole point of fighting the way we did was to avoid making the British and Soviet mistake of being seen as an invasion rather than as an ally. We didn't leave Afghanistan vulnerable to attack by the Taliban, we helped the Northern Alliance to push out the Taliban in return for setting up a democracy and stepped aside to allow them to develop their government with our assistance.

As to difference - Obama is conducting more Predator strikes in Pakistan as noted, which is a good thing as long as Pakistan tacitly agrees. He also set a date on which combat will be over, which automatically makes the Taliban the winner over us - all they have to do is remain in the fight, in any capacity, until we pull out and they have defeated us. This seems like a very, very bad thing indeed. But there is a chance that the Afghans will step up and defeat the Taliban on their own, in which case the Messiah's end date might turn out to be a good thing. It lends itself to the view that the USA is a paper tiger without the heart for the long war, but also might save US soldiers' lives. Let's all hope and pray that the Afghan government does step up and defeat the Taliban after we leave or, failing that, that Obama will decide to stay until the situation rather than the calender dictates our departure.

So, The US chased the Taliban and A.Q. out of Afghanistan and then redirected resources to Iraq. Who is the US fighting in Afghanistan right now?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
If we want a short answer, Obama's answer to Afghanistan is not been sufficiently better than GWB's.

But almost every initial assumption GWB made about Afghanistan has proved to be exactly the wrong thing to do. When Nato came into Afghanistan in late 2001 and 2002, Nato had almost all of the aces, including the support of most of the Afghan people. Then through a series of massive blunders and wrong assumptions, we managed to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory while totally putting our supposed ally Pakistan in an untenable position.

Giant mistake #1. We allied with the corrupt loser in the Afghan civil war, namely the Northern alliance. The very entity whose corruption made the Taliban the lesser of two evils. All Nato had was massive air power, the ground muscle was provided by the rearmed Northern alliance. And with the element of surprise and massive air power, the Taliban government fell and was soon in full flight Eastward towards the Tribal areas of Pakistan. It was simply military 101, to catch such a fleeing foe in a pincher movement of pre placed Nato troops just waiting to the West of Tora Bora. And caught between anvil and hammer, that would have been the end of the Taliban and most of Al-Quida.
But as we can see Dumsfeld never bothered with military 101, because he was a legend in his own mind. Then giant mistake 1B, once we had the Taliban and Al-Quida cornered in Tora Bora and air power was blunted by all kinds of sheltering caves, we sent in the Northern alliance to do the bloody fighting under the theory let them rather than out ground troops do the dying. And instead discovered the Northern alliance had no grievances with Al-Quida, were not going to fight Al-Quida, and their mission accomplished in chasing the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Northern alliance was soon heading West to re set up their corruption businesses at their same old stands.

Giant mistake #2. Once the Taliban and Al-Quida completed their retreat and escaped from Tora Bora into the tribal areas of Pakistan, GWB ASSUMED DEMOCRACY WAS A MAGIC PANACEA. And assumed by building a democratic Afghan government under Karzai, democracy would simply automatically trickle down from the top to the hamlet level. And then we discovered Nato relied on exactly the wrong head of government, and soon everything inside the Karzai government was soon in bed with corruption and drug money. And soon all of Afghanistan was in far worse shape than when the Taliban brought some order out of the total corruption and anarchy of the Afghan civil war.

Giant mistake #3. When it became apparent that the Afghan government was not functioning as planed and the Taliban started filtering back into Afghanistan, Nato instead of addressing the corruption and anarchy issues that gave the Taliban a reason to be back, Nato instead accommodated itself with co-operating with the corruption and anarchy, and tried instead to try to kill as many Taliban as possible. Under the assumption we could kill our way out of the Taliban problem. Meanwhile killing so many Afghan civilians that soon many angry civilians were joining the Taliban faster than we could kill older recruits.

Giant mistake #4, We believed our own propaganda, and assumed the Taliban was just some totally evil entity that joined the Taliban movement for the sole purpose of shoving rifles into a little girls vagina and pulling the trigger. While maybe true in a few instances, we failed to understand that the Taliban was experienced in governing Afghanistan, and knew exactly how to establish local control and governance in a bottom up rather than the Nato from the top down manner. And we assumed that when the Taliban brutally asserted their control, the only people they killed were the good guys, when in fact, many of the people they killed were the bad corrupt people that were terrorizing the local people. So the people under Taliban control at least had a
rough brutal government that worked with rules they understood. Which is more than that can be said about Afghan civilians not under Taliban control, because they had no government at all, nothing to protect them from thugs and thieves who were often the Afghan police, and that is a poor choice also.

That roughly gets us up to the Presidential transition to Obama.

When Obama actually put more troops on the ground, and started looking at areas NATO ground troops never visited. And we discovered that the areas that suffered the least violence were under fairly tight Taliban control.

But I think even today, most Afghans do not like the brutal Taliban tactics, but Nato never stays in one place long enough to set up stable local government that protect people who inform on the Taliban. Instead Nato just goes from place to place stirring up more and more violence and Afghan civilian misery, and never stays anywhere to build anything. And soon the Taliban is right back. In short the Afghan people would prefer Nato over the Taliban, but after nine years of only Nato pie in the sky ideas, its hard to for the Afghan people to believe in a Nato governance that is about as real as the tooth fairy.

Short answer for Nato, we need a hell of a lot more troops, and if Nato can't save all of Afghanistan, we need to pick some spots to save and stay. Get working local governments up and working, throw out the corrupt thugs and thieves, and get the violence levels in those areas down to zero.