Are living beings conducive to order or chaos?

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
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Given a system and including living beings within it, is life conducive to order within the system or Chaos?

Appearances can be deceptive, while living beings posses highly structured internal systems, do you think life over a long term reference of time induces order into a system or chaos?

I'm personally inclined to believe that life is chaotic as a whole.

EDIT Added Poll
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,387
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Depends. If I was living in Somalia I may have a different opinion than I do living in the boring old Midwest.
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,783
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Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
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Originally posted by: slackwarelinux
Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
Originally posted by: slackwarelinux
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: slackwarelinux
wat?

entropy always wins.

Evolution defied entropy.

No, it didn't.
Life has nothing to do with it.

Fatalist!

I don't see how that is relevant, I'm still right :p. Science ftw.

I'm sure science isn't the only theory that finds you irrelevant.
 

ggnl

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2004
5,095
1
0
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

None of those provide order. All of them are highly entropic themselves.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,100
5,640
126
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

Yup. We strive for Order and are quite successful at producing it, at least for periods of time. Even when we falter and descend into Chaos, many begin the re-establishment of Order during that Chaos. Entropy has no bearing on it.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,100
5,640
126
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

None of those provide order. All of them are highly entropic themselves.

Incorrect.
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,783
2
76
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

You are looking at just human life, and so I'll just respond to that aspect of it.

If you remove the artificial constructs like those that we had to create to have a semi-ordered life, we are very chaotic. Just look in the news. You will see how chaotic humans can be. The minute that structure and order is removed from our lives (or we percieve it to be removed), we revert back to the very chaotic nature we have.

Humanity forces itself to have a government, and religion (which not to get off topic, but this in itself is a very illogical, irrational, logical construct humanity created) because without things them to force us into an ordered existence we would be very chaotic and live in anarchy. We have evolved to know that we must force ourself to have a very structured existence (through government and religion) to be able to achieve things without beating the sh*t out of one another. Look back to caveman days, and at how chaotic we were then. The only reason we aren't like that now (usually) is because of the constructs we have forced ourself to live in through religion and government (among other things).
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,100
5,640
126
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

You are looking at just human life, and so I'll just respond to that aspect of it.

If you remove the artificial constructs like those that we had to create to have a semi-ordered life, we are very chaotic. Just look in the news. You will see how chaotic humans can be. The minute that structure and order is removed from our lives (or we percieve it to be removed), we revert back to the very chaotic nature we have.

Humanity forces itself to have a government, and religion (which not to get off topic, but this in itself is a very illogical, irrational, logical construct humanity created) because without things them to force us into an ordered existence we would be very chaotic and live in anarchy. We have evolved to know that we must force ourself to have a very structured existence (through government and religion) to be able to achieve things without beating the sh*t out of one another. Look back to caveman days, and at how chaotic we were then. The only reason we aren't like that now (usually) is because of the constructs we have forced ourself to live in through religion and government (among other things).

Even looking outside Humanity, you find similar Constructs. Ants, numerous Herd animals, Birds, and others all show their own Constructs of Order.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
126
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

You are looking at just human life, and so I'll just respond to that aspect of it.

If you remove the artificial constructs like those that we had to create to have a semi-ordered life, we are very chaotic. Just look in the news. You will see how chaotic humans can be. The minute that structure and order is removed from our lives (or we percieve it to be removed), we revert back to the very chaotic nature we have.

Humanity forces itself to have a government, and religion (which not to get off topic, but this in itself is a very illogical, irrational, logical construct humanity created) because without things them to force us into an ordered existence we would be very chaotic and live in anarchy. We have evolved to know that we must force ourself to have a very structured existence (through government and religion) to be able to achieve things without beating the sh*t out of one another. Look back to caveman days, and at how chaotic we were then. The only reason we aren't like that now (usually) is because of the constructs we have forced ourself to live in through religion and government (among other things).

Humanity forces itself to have structure in the form of government and religion? Bwahahahaha! Humanity loves structure and can't tolerate chaos. Structures in society aren't rigid chains, they're billboards screaming out our real natures. Seriously, you need to get out more.
 

hanoverphist

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2006
9,928
23
76
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

i think religion almost ended "us" a few times, didnt it?


i thrive on chaos, but my ex was all order. i think its a product of environment personally. we as humans adapt to whatever we need to for survival. stories throughout time give us example of that.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: slackwarelinux
wat?

entropy always wins.

Evolution defied entropy.

Entropy only applies to closed systems. All the places in the universe that we know of which contain life (Earth) are not closed systems. Thus, entropy has nothing to do with it.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

None of those provide order. All of them are highly entropic themselves.

Incorrect.

Yeah ok. My bad. Culture, religion, and government have all remained unchanged and steady for centuries. Culture in particular is very steady and not subject to entropy whatsoever. No one would ever dare to claim that the culture of people across the world is slowly becoming homogenized.
 

ggnl

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2004
5,095
1
0
Originally posted by: hanoverphist
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

i think religion almost ended "us" a few times, didnt it?


i thrive on chaos, but my ex was all order. i think its a product of environment personally. we as humans adapt to whatever we need to for survival. stories throughout time give us example of that.

But early religion was often used as a way of codifying various behaviors that increased our chances of survivng in increasingly large groups. You could say it's evolution was just as inevitable as biological evolution.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,100
5,640
126
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: torpid
Originally posted by: ggnl
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Life is chaos.

We might be an ordered biological system; however, life itself is chaotic.

This does depend on the system you are looking at.

But culture, religion, govenrment, etc. are all mechanisms that evolved (along with our biological evolution) to provide order and allow us to flourish in ever increasing numbers.

None of those provide order. All of them are highly entropic themselves.

Incorrect.

Yeah ok. My bad. Culture, religion, and government have all remained unchanged and steady for centuries. Culture in particular is very steady and not subject to entropy whatsoever. No one would ever dare to claim that the culture of people across the world is slowly becoming homogenized.

en·tro·py
/'?ntr?pi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [en-truh-pee] Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun
1. Thermodynamics.
a. (on a macroscopic scale) a function of thermodynamic variables, as temperature, pressure, or composition, that is a measure of the energy that is not available for work during a thermodynamic process. A closed system evolves toward a state of maximum entropy.
b. (in statistical mechanics) a measure of the randomness of the microscopic constituents of a thermodynamic system. Symbol: S
2. (in data transmission and information theory) a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted signal or message.
3. (in cosmology) a hypothetical tendency for the universe to attain a state of maximum homogeneity in which all matter is at a uniform temperature (heat death).
4. a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration.

Change and Entropy are not the same thing. Entropy is only 1 subset of Change.