Are IDE ribbon cables 'bi-directional'?

[LurkingInNC]

Are dual device ATA 100/133 IDE ribbon cables 'bi-directional'? What about dual device IDE round cables?

My hard drives are at the bottom of my mid-tower case because there's an intake fan down there that directly cools it. The 5.25" bays for my DVD drives start at the midway point of the case & go up. I'm gonna replace my ribbon cables with round cables and when I do I'd like to make the hard drives masters and the DVD drives slaves. But each hard drive is more than 6" from the DVD drive I want to link it with.

For most 18" cables there seems to be 12" between the MB connector and the first drive connector and then 6" between the first and second drive connectors. That is if my understanding that most cables have a 'MB end' is correct. If not, I can hook the 'short' end between the MB & HD and will have enough room to reach the DVD drive up top.

No idea where I got the idea that there is a 'MB' end, but I have seen some round cables online with one of the connectors labeled "MB" or something to that effect, and it's at the back of the 'long end' of the connectors, meaning that there would be only 6" between the connectors for the two drives.

Also, any suggestions as to good places to buy round cables online that won't kill you with shipping?

Thanks!



I'm ignorant not retarded; there's a difference!

 

[JackMDS]

All the cables in the world are bi-directional.

 

[Soundmanred]

You probably got that idea since some cable makers (or motherboard makers) decided to label them. My Abit board came with cables with little tags that say MB, Master, and Slave, and they are color coded. (Blue connector goes to MB, black ones go to drives.)
I'm not sure why they do this as they are bidirectional.
Unless you ask someone from Monster Cable.

 

[LurkingInNC]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
All the cables in the world are bi-directional.

Thanks for the reply. I kinda knew that, I should have worded my question differently. Let me rephrase: I don't know how a dual device IDE cable is constructed and am wondering about the relationship between its three connectors. Can any of the three connectors be hooked to the MB?

 

[LurkingInNC]

ignore my last post, I wrote it before I read smr's post, which answers my question.

yeah, I've read about that audiophile controversy regarding cables. Sounds like a marketing gimmick to this ig'nant listener, lol.

 

[JackMDS]

It matters, there is a specific way to connect the IDE cables

One end goes to the Mobo, the middle goes to a secondary slave drive and the other end goes to the IDE primary.

Usually the Mobo end is the one with the bigger space toward the middle, otherwise it should be tagged.

Round cables and ribbons are the same functionally wise. The difference is just in the physical arrangement of the individual cables.

 

[0roo0roo]

yup, only the jumper settings matter. two drives sharing the same cable will not have the optimal performance if accessed simultaneously since thats where ide sorta chokes. there is no performance difference between being a master or a slave though.
if you are really anal you can get a pci ide card for about 20 dollars on ebay or where ever and have each device on its own cable
better than wasting money on round cables which frankly don't do much.

 

[jaqie]

This is technically incorrect for ATA66 and higher (80 wire) cables, which use a wiring scheme known as cable select (CSEL or CS). This wiring scheme actually breaks connection with a single specified conductor for the slave designated plug and another for the master designated plug. In practice, this usually has no effect for those that swap the cable contrarywise to the designated uses for them as long as master/slave jumpers are set manually, but a few special conditions do exist that can cause slowdowns. Basically, a few BIOSes actually use a continuity checker to see if the cable has CSEL wiring and use that to determine if the cable is the older 40 wire (ata33 or slower) or 80 wire (ata66 or newer) cable, and either warn the user on boot, disable speeds higher then ata33, or both. This is rare, and there are other things that it can do, but this does happen.

In a nutshell, technically the plugs are not interchangable for use, but in practice usually nothing bad will result from doing it.

OrooOroo is actually on the button on this one, especially with how cheap dual ATA133 controllers are ($14ish), and is what I do for drives. I never, ever use slave drives, one drive one channel. Performance is much higher, possible problems are much lower.

As for round cabling, I have had tremendously good luck with the pctoys.com braided copper clad round cables, and they are amazingly cheap. They actually have the copper cladding and inside that are twisted-pair, I have had zero problems with performance degradation with these.

 

[0roo0roo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A..._Technology_Attachment
yea i forgot to mention the cs. i use that sometimes too.

yea i've been using cheapo silicon image type ide pci cards for years. mines lasted through a couple pc upgrades. they've been cheap for years now. i just checked ebay, about $7 bucks. 5 more for shipping...hard to beat i got mine for about 20 shipped.

 

[jaqie]

I don't do ebay. you can actually get a syba one based on the sil0680 controller for less shipped from newegg. my ~$14 was including shipping.

 

[JackMDS]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
better than wasting money on round cables which frankly don't do much.

Wow, you mean that I am not going to be able to Kill faster with my gaming Rig using my new shiny round cables. :shocked:

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: jaqie
I don't do ebay. you can actually get a syba one based on the sil0680 controller for less shipped from newegg. my ~$14 was including shipping.

true, i'd probably trust newegg before ebay. think i got one from each way back.

Originally posted by: JackMDS

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
better than wasting money on round cables which frankly don't do much.

Wow, you mean that I am not going to be able to Kill faster with my gaming Rig using my new shiny round cables. :shocked:

haha with sata devices everywhere i dont think they can charge much for those pata cables anymore. and well the sexy is gone! next to a sata cable the fat rubber pata round cable looks a bit tacky nowdays.

 

[jaqie]

What I want is cheap, well made, ubiquitous, black sata2 cables. the red ones are grating my nerves almost as bad as the putty-vanilla computer parts we were stuck with for over a decade.

 

[eplebnista]

Originally posted by: jaqie
What I want is cheap, well made, ubiquitous, black sata2 cables. the red ones are grating my nerves almost as bad as the putty-vanilla computer parts we were stuck with for over a decade.

Like these?

Other colors are available also. :thumbsup:

 

[jaqie]

I think you missed the ubiquitous part there.
I do not see them at newegg, tigerdirect, geeks.com, or many other of my usual suppliers. I remember when black faced hardware and black cases were not ubiquitous items.

 

[Roguestar]

Originally posted by: JackMDS

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
better than wasting money on round cables which frankly don't do much.

Wow, you mean that I am not going to be able to Kill faster with my gaming Rig using my new shiny round cables. :shocked:

Actually if you get UV reactive ones with lights in and volt-mod them you see an increase in up to 35 PlaceboMarks, a synthetic benchmark that came on my Killer NIC driver CD.

 

[LurkingInNC]

Wow, didn't realize what I didn't know, lol.

The syba card at newegg is up to $19 shipped, but after reading the reviews I'd be afraid to buy it. I know u 2 have had good luck with it, but alot of reviewers had some real problems.

Btw, I'm looking at round cables to clean up case & get better airflow, not increase performance.

I don't use my optical drives all that much so wouldn't have much problem with running 2 drives off of each ide port if I could find a dual cable that would let me configure them as I'd like to. Problem is that I need the longer distance between the two drives (I could live with only 6" between the MB & 1st drive)...

If I wasn't so broke I'd buy a new SATA HD to replace my PATA, problem solved (unfortunately I'm REALLY broke, lol).

Thanks for replies so far, if I can figure out a configuration, PCTOYS looks like a good place to get cables. They aren't ridiculous w.r.t. shipping costs (Newegg wants $6 to ship a $3 cable).

 

[LurkingInNC]

I just reread the wiki reference above, let me see if i understand correctly:

With the old 40 wire cables the connectors ARE 'interchangable'; it's the new 80 wire connectors, for UDMA/66 and above, where position matters?

My motherboard (epox 8HDA) specifies its' P-ATA IDE as UDMA-33, ATA-66/100/133. Since it's the older UDMA/33standard, does a 80 wire cable even buy me anything? Would I get the same speeds with a 40 wire cable? And does connector position still matter, given the UDMA/33 standard?

Lastly, after looking at the Standards Table in the wiki article, I'm confused as to how UDMA-33 jibes with ATA-66/100/133 on my motherboard. According to the table, the 66/100/133 speeds are associated with the UDMA-66, UDMA-100, and UDMA-166 standards. What am I missing?

Anyone still patient enough to try to fill me in?

 

[Old Hippie]

Actually if you get UV reactive ones with lights in and volt-mod them you see an increase in up to 35 PlaceboMarks, a synthetic benchmark that came on my Killer NIC driver CD.

LMAO!! :thumbsup:

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: jaqie
What I want is cheap, well made, ubiquitous, black sata2 cables. the red ones are grating my nerves almost as bad as the putty-vanilla computer parts we were stuck with for over a decade.

i dunno, clear window cases are kinda outa style

 

[jaqie]

Originally posted by: LurkingInNC
. . . . I know u 2 have had good luck with it, but alot of reviewers had some real problems.

A lot of the reviewers there have PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard and chair) and yet more have issues I did with older hardware and older BIOS versions on the card. If you have issues with it, I will be glad to help, but this card is actually much better then the only alternatives out there, and is identical to many other brands (as almost all pata cards now use the same sil0680 chip and reference board design).

I don't use my optical drives all that much so wouldn't have much problem with running 2 drives off of each ide port if I could find a dual cable that would let me configure them as I'd like to. Problem is that I need the longer distance between the two drives (I could live with only 6" between the MB & 1st drive)...

I have a single copper(clear plastic) 24" round cable from pctoys I use for such length issues, I highly recommend it to you for this use, plenty of cable even hooking up the drives to their proper connectors.

If I wasn't so broke I'd buy a new SATA HD to replace my PATA, problem solved (unfortunately I'm REALLY broke, lol).

I know the feeling. Why replace something that works fine? that's why I actually keep a couple sil0680 cards around.

Thanks for replies so far, if I can figure out a configuration, PCTOYS looks like a good place to get cables. They aren't ridiculous w.r.t. shipping costs (Newegg wants $6 to ship a $3 cable).

Yeah, they are awesome.

I just reread the wiki reference above, let me see if i understand correctly:

With the old 40 wire cables the connectors ARE 'interchangable'; it's the new 80 wire connectors, for UDMA/66 and above, where position matters?

Re-read my post above about this. Basically, it barely ever makes anything bad happen and the worst that can possibly happen is a slowdown or system lack of boot until you disconnect the wrongly connected devices, most of the time it works just fine when not hooked properly.

My motherboard (epox 8HDA) specifies its' P-ATA IDE as UDMA-33, ATA-66/100/133. Since it's the older UDMA/33standard, does a 80 wire cable even buy me anything? Would I get the same speeds with a 40 wire cable? And does connector position still matter, given the UDMA/33 standard?

Lastly, after looking at the Standards Table in the wiki article, I'm confused as to how UDMA-33 jibes with ATA-66/100/133 on my motherboard. According to the table, the 66/100/133 speeds are associated with the UDMA-66, UDMA-100, and UDMA-166 standards. What am I missing?

It looks to me like you are misinterpreting / misunderstanding the idiocy that is put into the motherboard manual. Basically, it is saying it can handle everything from UDMA33 to UDMA133 (ata33 to ata133). If you use an older 40 wire cable, you may get data errors, but most likely by far you will merely be running your drive in ATA33 mode (theoretical max transfer of 33MB per second transfer).

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
All the cables in the world are bi-directional.

No, they are omnidirectional. The IDE bus does not allow a device to read while it's being written to. The device must stop reading or writing to change operations. SCSI is bi-directional and can read as well as write with out having to change operations, SAS is also the same way.

Also worth noting, early SATA incarnations were also omnidirectional and pickup bidirectional support in the later specification.

As far as cable position goes, it does matter and it's important that you plug the motherboard side in to the motherboard or you will be reversing the two lines responsible for cable select.

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: jaqie
What I want is cheap, well made, ubiquitous, black sata2 cables. the red ones are grating my nerves almost as bad as the putty-vanilla computer parts we were stuck with for over a decade.

Granite DIGITAL SCSI level quality IDE cable. I may be mistaken but I believe they use silver conductor. They are in lengths of 18-36 inches and signal integrity is guaranteed.

http://www.granitedigital.com/...n=VIEWCATS&Category=36

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: jaqie

Originally posted by: LurkingInNC
. . . . I know u 2 have had good luck with it, but alot of reviewers had some real problems.

A lot of the reviewers there have PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard and chair) and yet more have issues I did with older hardware and older BIOS versions on the card. If you have issues with it, I will be glad to help, but this card is actually much better then the only alternatives out there, and is identical to many other brands (as almost all pata cards now use the same sil0680 chip and reference board design).

I don't use my optical drives all that much so wouldn't have much problem with running 2 drives off of each ide port if I could find a dual cable that would let me configure them as I'd like to. Problem is that I need the longer distance between the two drives (I could live with only 6" between the MB & 1st drive)...

I have a single copper(clear plastic) 24" round cable from pctoys I use for such length issues, I highly recommend it to you for this use, plenty of cable even hooking up the drives to their proper connectors.

If I wasn't so broke I'd buy a new SATA HD to replace my PATA, problem solved (unfortunately I'm REALLY broke, lol).

I know the feeling. Why replace something that works fine? that's why I actually keep a couple sil0680 cards around.

Thanks for replies so far, if I can figure out a configuration, PCTOYS looks like a good place to get cables. They aren't ridiculous w.r.t. shipping costs (Newegg wants $6 to ship a $3 cable).

Yeah, they are awesome.

I just reread the wiki reference above, let me see if i understand correctly:

With the old 40 wire cables the connectors ARE 'interchangable'; it's the new 80 wire connectors, for UDMA/66 and above, where position matters?

Re-read my post above about this. Basically, it barely ever makes anything bad happen and the worst that can possibly happen is a slowdown or system lack of boot until you disconnect the wrongly connected devices, most of the time it works just fine when not hooked properly.

My motherboard (epox 8HDA) specifies its' P-ATA IDE as UDMA-33, ATA-66/100/133. Since it's the older UDMA/33standard, does a 80 wire cable even buy me anything? Would I get the same speeds with a 40 wire cable? And does connector position still matter, given the UDMA/33 standard?

Lastly, after looking at the Standards Table in the wiki article, I'm confused as to how UDMA-33 jibes with ATA-66/100/133 on my motherboard. According to the table, the 66/100/133 speeds are associated with the UDMA-66, UDMA-100, and UDMA-166 standards. What am I missing?

It looks to me like you are misinterpreting / misunderstanding the idiocy that is put into the motherboard manual. Basically, it is saying it can handle everything from UDMA33 to UDMA133 (ata33 to ata133). If you use an older 40 wire cable, you may get data errors, but most likely by far you will merely be running your drive in ATA33 mode (theoretical max transfer of 33MB per second transfer).

You are correct about 40wire and data errors. It's best to use an 80wire even on older computers, in those machines the extra wires help to keep signal noise to a minimum.

 

[jaqie]

Originally posted by: Googer
No, they are omnidirectional. The IDE bus does not allow a device to read while it's being written to. The device must stop reading or writing to change operations. SCSI is bi-directional and can read as well as write with out having to change operations, SAS is also the same way.

I think you are confusing synchronous and asyncronous with directionals there.