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Are govt surpluses ever good?

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Anarchist420

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I don't think so because they decrease personal savings. That is, as govt savings go up, private savings go down.

Surpluses are not necessary to pay down debt, and are in fact counter-productive because the assets bought with debt could be decentralized.

Isn't delegating the govt the power to tax harmful? Explain.
 

JTsyo

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Yea, look at all the trouble Norway has with it's extra wealth. They don't know how to spend it.

The government has to collect taxes, who else would do it? Surplus aren't needed unless you have a good plan on saving it for times of need, instead of blowing it as soon as you get it. Using the surplus to pay down current debt is a fine idea I think, better than giving everyone a tax break. One you have no national debt left then you can give the citizens the tax break.
 

EagleKeeper

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without the government having the authority to tax; where will it derive the funds needed to operate?
 

Anarchist420

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without the government having the authority to tax; where will it derive the funds needed to operate?
It can borrow then it can decentralize the debt based upon representation or population.

Using the surplus to pay down current debt is a fine idea I think, better than giving everyone a tax break. One you have no national debt left then you can give the citizens the tax break.
What about selling public land and public weapons while also cutting taxes? Even better... what about decentralizing the debt, giving the land back to the States, and then giving weapons to offset the differences in amount of land?

The public debt should never be paid back 100% anyway; more should be repudiated than paid back. Thomas Jefferson said it was not a right to be paid back at tax payer expense.
 
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ElFenix

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so you want the government to borrow, repudiate some debt, and then assign the obligation to pay to individuals?

what lender would ever accept those terms?
 
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dullard

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Sadly governments need at least some cash. So, if you want to live in a country with a government, the populace needs to pay tax in some form (through some combination of taxing individuals, businesses, and/or resources). Lets assume you live in a country that requires taxes in some form. If you live in a country with no taxes of any form, then your question is pointless, since your government has no surpluses. And you can leave this thread in that case. If not, read on.

Now you have three options: (a) tax more when the economy is doing well and less when the economy is doing poorly, (b) tax more when the economy is doing poorly and less when the economy is doing well, or (c) try to magically tax the same in all cases. I'll toss out option (c) since no government is that perfect and that quickly responding to flawlessly adjust tax rates that magically generate the same tax in a poor economy and a booming economy.

So now, which is better, option (a) or option (b)?

I will propose that option (b) is the worse choice. Why? Because raising more tax revenue when the economy is doing poorly makes that recession even worse. I personally can't come up with a logical reason to make recessions worse. True, the booms with even lower taxes would be really booming, but the recessions are really low in this case. You essentially have a bi-polar economy. The government's odd choice to tax more when people/businesses have less just magnifies the swings. These wild swings makes planning worse for businesses and that even further magnifies the boom/bust cycle. A worse boom/bust cycle leads to more government spending to recover from those huge stresses, which means more taxes, more spending, more waste.

What are you left with? The best option is a government that taxes more in good times and less in bad times (option a). Luckily, this is the default behavior of almost all tax systems that I've ever heard of. Incomes go up, profits go up, resource usage goes up, and thus tax revenues go up. The effect is that in bad times the taxes go down making the recessions less painful. Also in good times taxes naturally go up, which takes off the edge of wild boom cycles. The net effect is that the economy has less severe booms/busts. That makes business planning better, people more confident, and the government better able to cut spending since it has less need for safety nets or bailouts (thus lower taxes overall). These all let the economy grow faster.

Now suppose the government has a long-term plan that cuts spending to the bare bones (I assume you think this is a good idea). In that case, spending cuts even further are severely harmful or impossible. Also, suppose that long-term this is a roughly balanced budget (taxes are as low as possible to sustain government). Again, I assume you would find that to be a good thing.

What is the only possible outcome of this ideal low-spending, low-tax, non-wild-swings tax, that is balanced in the long term? There would be slight surpluses in good times when tax revenues are higher and slight deficits in bad times when tax revenues are lower.

Basically, if you actually got everything you publically stated that you wanted on this forum, you'd be required to have government surpluses in good times and government deficits in bad times. That is where government surpluses are a good thing. Surpluses smooth out the economy, make planning easier, and lets governments drop spending on recovery from busts/bailouts/safety nets/etc. (which leads to lower taxes). All these are good things, and all REQUIRE occasional surpluses in the long run.
 
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Anarchist420

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Basically, if you actually got everything you publically stated that you wanted on this forum, you'd be required to have government surpluses in good times and government deficits in bad times. That is where government surpluses are a good thing. Surpluses smooth out the economy, make planning easier, and lets governments drop spending on recovery from busts/bailouts/safety nets/etc. (which leads to lower taxes). All these are good things, and all REQUIRE occasional surpluses in the long run.
Monetary policy is largely why there are surges and sags in revenue. And actually, the fiscal policy you advocate would eventually cause a sag in govt revenue; that is, excessive surpluses during good times artificially increases the price of money which then must lead to deficits.

Anyway, even if taxation is voluntary some people will choose to pay if the spending is popular enough. Loaning to the govt, is of course, voluntary so since people loan to the govt then people would probably pay taxes voluntarily.

Also, taxation requires spending because people have to be paid to collect and enforce the taxes. Then it requires spending to jail those who don't give into the demands of the State.
 
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drebo

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Feb 24, 2006
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Taxes are necessary. The problem is in the allocation of said taxes, which leads directly to the size and organization of the government.

"General funds" are the devices of corrupt politicians and should be outlawed. Every department, project, etc, should have its own tax and its own budget and its own books. The federal government should be stripped of all departments which are redundant to state departments (or which shouldn't be under the purview of the fedgov anyway) or redundant within the federal government itself.

The federal government was never meant to be the largest employer in the country, nor was the military meant to be the biggest jobs program.
 

Meghan54

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The federal government should be stripped of all departments which are redundant to state departments (or which shouldn't be under the purview of the fedgov anyway) or redundant within the federal government itself.



So, take for instance education. You're advocating that the states should have exclusive right to set educational standards, right? And that the fed. shouldn't impose standards across all the states, right?

I can see how that might appeal to some, but consider the consequences. We've already seen states that want a religious based education (just like the Muslims) and denying science--mostly anyway, namely the entire southern tier of states. So, you'd end up with a poorly educated population in the south while the northeast, you know---the "progressive" states, would have a highly competent, science based, educated population. Guess which one would be responsible for developing products, ideas, etc.? Wouldn't be the south.

And with that, we'd have a major portion of the population unable to compete in the world market. You'd have a section of the country indoctrinated so heavily into religious beliefs and eschewing science that they'd become even worse dumb asses than what's already there.
 

drebo

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Feb 24, 2006
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Every area of our country is different. A unifying "education" plan does not work. Look at the failure that was No Child Left Behind.

What works for suburbs in California does not work for urban Chicago. The demographics are considerably different.

Also, no states have pushed "religious education denying science." If you can cite a source of a STATE department of education doing such, please do. And, no, teaching that creationism exists is not religious education.

You're also more than free to send your kid to a magnet school or charter school or private school that is more in line with what you want. Or, if you don't like the direction your state government is headed, you can move. That's the beauty of free will, as opposed to serfdom.

Point is, a federal department of education is useless when it comes to education. A bunch of bureaucrats who have, by and large, never taught determining policies for schools of places they've never been...well, it should be easy to see the fail of that.
 
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