Are free clinics a better option than government health insurance ?

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Modelworks
[

I am not talking about government insurance. I am talking about places operated by non profit organizations funded partially by the government. The ones here where anyone can walk in , even illegals (I know some have issues with that), and show proof of income. Once they have that they tell you what you have to pay.

And what I'm saying is that the systems set up by the government do almost exactly the same thing with just a different payment mechanism.

There is a big difference. If you hand out insurance people can go to wherever they like, sounds good, free choice. The downside to that is that it feeds the problem, for profit health care. If you run a non profit clinic that has to meet standards to receive money then you have control over the cost as well as the quality of care while still allowing people who wish to obtain insurance and pay more to go elsewhere.

You're trying to fix it all at once. That's not going to happen due to the powers that be.

1. Use the $$ and support of pharma / device makers to get the "payment" side of things locked up.

2. once the "payment" side of things is locked up, go back and screw pharma / device makers.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: eskimospy


You do realize that socialized medicine in many other countries operates in almost exactly that way, right? Government insurance at a certain minimum level that operates in a non-profit manner, and if you want 'better' health care you can get private insurance on top of it.

Basically that's the European model in a nutshell (with a few exceptions).

I am not talking about government insurance. I am talking about places operated by non profit organizations funded partially by the government. The ones here where anyone can walk in , even illegals (I know some have issues with that), and show proof of income. Once they have that they tell you what you have to pay.

These clinics attract people with the least amount of money plus people with preexisting conditions that are too expensive for the private market. How long is such a model sustainable without ever increasing Government funding?

The private market isn't expensive because it has to be, it is expensive because it is for profit. That is one thing a clinic can curb. Do you think we can have the government pay for these people with insurance and still not increase funding ?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Those free clinics are pretty sad in my experience. I've had to interact with their staff many times over the years, some of the staff is paid, many are volunteers who have full time jobs that do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Nice folks, but give them a complicated case & the threads start to unravel...

Thats the thing. A clinic should be for the basic broken legs, colds, rashs, etc... if they get soemthing that is not the standard then they should be sent to the ER or higher up Doc.

If this was planned and one well then it would take a lot of load off of ERs and other places and allow them to do their job and not be held up as Ms. Jones wants her antibiotics for her common cold and will sit in the ER/Docs office until she gets them.

I know it can work as I have seen it in my own community. The key is that it has to be well managed. The one here is non profit and very high care. I know people have the image of a free clinic as being a place that is all run down, poor doctors, and bad care but that isn't always the case. The place here is very clean , the staff is nice, and the care is as good or better than I have gotten at much more expensive places.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Those free clinics are pretty sad in my experience. I've had to interact with their staff many times over the years, some of the staff is paid, many are volunteers who have full time jobs that do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Nice folks, but give them a complicated case & the threads start to unravel...

They don't have to be though. The reason they are having a hard time is because they have very little funding. If we took some of the billions we will spend to insure the poor and instead put it into these type of clinics we could do more good than essentially giving billions to people that are in health care to get rich.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

nm

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Those free clinics are pretty sad in my experience. I've had to interact with their staff many times over the years, some of the staff is paid, many are volunteers who have full time jobs that do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Nice folks, but give them a complicated case & the threads start to unravel...

They don't have to be though. The reason they are having a hard time is because they have very little funding. If we took some of the billions we will spend to insure the poor and instead put it into these type of clinics we could do more good than essentially giving billions to people that are in health care to get rich.

Who are the people who are in health care to get rich?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Those free clinics are pretty sad in my experience. I've had to interact with their staff many times over the years, some of the staff is paid, many are volunteers who have full time jobs that do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Nice folks, but give them a complicated case & the threads start to unravel...

They don't have to be though. The reason they are having a hard time is because they have very little funding. If we took some of the billions we will spend to insure the poor and instead put it into these type of clinics we could do more good than essentially giving billions to people that are in health care to get rich.

Who are the people who are in health care to get rich?

The people that charge $124 for IV saline solution on patients bills.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Those free clinics are pretty sad in my experience. I've had to interact with their staff many times over the years, some of the staff is paid, many are volunteers who have full time jobs that do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Nice folks, but give them a complicated case & the threads start to unravel...

They don't have to be though. The reason they are having a hard time is because they have very little funding. If we took some of the billions we will spend to insure the poor and instead put it into these type of clinics we could do more good than essentially giving billions to people that are in health care to get rich.

Who are the people who are in health care to get rich?

The people that charge $124 for IV saline solution on patients bills.

What does that $124 represent in fact?

Edit: Do you have a job, and if you do what is it? If you program, what does media cost? If you make a product, what are the costs of material?

You seem to think that

A: To bill for an amount means you are paid for it
B: That costs are somehow related to profit
C: That there is this group who gets paid $124 dollars, and pockets all but two bucks.

You haven't considered that practioners aren't paid what they ask. They are told how much they will get. You haven't factored in what the costs of delivering that bag of saline really are, which are the costs of the facility, from the janitor to the professional.

People come in off the street and demand services for free and they get it. Give me whatever you do for free, and pass the costs on to someone else. Would that change the way you price things? How about jacking up insurance costs to a significant proportion of your income?

How about when you have "customers" for which you'll be reimbursed 10K for something which wound up costing 50K, but you are legally bound to provide that service?

You really don't understand how things are at all. To be sure, many specialists are doing pretty well having surrendered 12+ years of their lives to get somewhere that took a lot of sacrifice to do. People who have the responsibility of dealing with life and death decisions. It's not trivial, oh like being the head of a corporation hauling in hundreds of millions. That's just money. They screw up and they get paid anyway and maybe you have to bail them out with taxes. These guys screw up and you die. Even if they don't screw up you may die, and they have to live with that.

This so reminds me of the "Holiday Inn Express" commercials.

 

[zephyrprime]

You're neglecting one important point: NOTHING IS FREE. The only reason these free clinics can exist is because of charity from private people, the government, and from the doctors themselves who work for a discount. A model like this can't work because there isn't enough charity to go around. Ultimately, SOMEBODY PAYS. You're being fooled by the apparently free health health care when in fact, nothing is ever free.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider


Edit: Do you have a job, and if you do what is it? If you program, what does media cost? If you make a product, what are the costs of material?

I work in visual effects for films. Doing CG models and animations. Cost is my time.

You seem to think that

A: To bill for an amount means you are paid for it
B: That costs are somehow related to profit
C: That there is this group who gets paid $124 dollars, and pockets all but two bucks.

A: The cost to me was $89 , not much better than $124
B: Considering I can buy a case of it for $54, profit fits
C: The company that makes it can sell it for $54 / 24 = $2.25 each and that includes their profit.

With the rest of the markups they add to the bill they more than cover what they spend and profit from it.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime
You're neglecting one important point: NOTHING IS FREE. The only reason these free clinics can exist is because of charity from private people, the government, and from the doctors themselves who work for a discount. A model like this can't work because there isn't enough charity to go around. Ultimately, SOMEBODY PAYS. You're being fooled by the apparently free health health care when in fact, nothing is ever free.

I never said it was free. I said they need to take the example of how free clinics are run and use that instead of making others richer.

A model like this does work, the clinic here has done it for 10 years and has grown in number of offices and support offerings. It isn't totally free, you have to pay what you can afford based on your income.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider


Edit: Do you have a job, and if you do what is it? If you program, what does media cost? If you make a product, what are the costs of material?

I work in visual effects for films. Doing CG models and animations. Cost is my time.

You seem to think that

A: To bill for an amount means you are paid for it
B: That costs are somehow related to profit
C: That there is this group who gets paid $124 dollars, and pockets all but two bucks.

A: The cost to me was $89 , not much better than $124
B: Considering I can buy a case of it for $54, profit fits
C: The company that makes it can sell it for $54 / 12 = $4.50 each and that includes their profit.

With the rest of the markups they add to the bill they more than cover what they spend and profit from it.

Well since one cannot bill God for time, your costs are inflated whatever you charge.
You and whatever company you represent make 100% profit. That's a good job if you can get it.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider


Edit: Do you have a job, and if you do what is it? If you program, what does media cost? If you make a product, what are the costs of material?

I work in visual effects for films. Doing CG models and animations. Cost is my time.

You seem to think that

A: To bill for an amount means you are paid for it
B: That costs are somehow related to profit
C: That there is this group who gets paid $124 dollars, and pockets all but two bucks.

A: The cost to me was $89 , not much better than $124
B: Considering I can buy a case of it for $54, profit fits
C: The company that makes it can sell it for $54 / 12 = $4.50 each and that includes their profit.

With the rest of the markups they add to the bill they more than cover what they spend and profit from it.

Well since one cannot bill God for time, your costs are inflated whatever you charge.
You and whatever company you represent make 100% profit. That's a good job if you can get it.

Are you always such an ass?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider


Edit: Do you have a job, and if you do what is it? If you program, what does media cost? If you make a product, what are the costs of material?

I work in visual effects for films. Doing CG models and animations. Cost is my time.

You seem to think that

A: To bill for an amount means you are paid for it
B: That costs are somehow related to profit
C: That there is this group who gets paid $124 dollars, and pockets all but two bucks.

A: The cost to me was $89 , not much better than $124
B: Considering I can buy a case of it for $54, profit fits
C: The company that makes it can sell it for $54 / 12 = $4.50 each and that includes their profit.

With the rest of the markups they add to the bill they more than cover what they spend and profit from it.

Well since one cannot bill God for time, your costs are inflated whatever you charge.
You and whatever company you represent make 100% profit. That's a good job if you can get it.

Are you always such an ass?

Mostly with people who like to give the impression that they know that which they do not. Obviously there are costs associated with what you do. There is the cost of your supplies, your education (self taught or otherwise). There are probably a hundred material things which go into what you and people like you do, but I can use your reasoning to state what a DVD costs, and use that as an example of how you are abusing others by trying to get rich. After all that disk costs less than a buck, less than that bag of saline. How's that yacht?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider


Mostly with people who like to give the impression that they know that which they do not. Obviously there are costs associated with what you do. There is the cost of your supplies, your education (self taught or otherwise). There are probably a hundred material things which go into what you and people like you do, but I can use your reasoning to state what a DVD costs, and use that as an example of how you are abusing others by trying to get rich. After all that disk costs less than a buck, less than that bag of saline. How's that yacht?

I know all about cost, more than most. I started out 20 years ago as an electrical engineer. I went to work at Sandia Labs where budget was nothing. If I designed something to work the best possible way then I was given the budget to pay for it regardless of cost. I left there to be closer to my aging parents to take a job at GE. There I found out all about cost. I was asked to design a lot of things, a lot of the designs I submitted were returned because while they were correct for the job they were too expensive. I was told to cut cost, even if it hurt the final product, shave off all I could to make things last just long enough. I did that for almost 10 years before I quit. I decided I had enough, that I wasn't going to compromise safety or quality just so the CEO could get a bigger bonus. I finished my last project and walked out, ending a $320K+ yearly salary. Instead I went back to what I wanted to do years ago but the industry wasn't developed at the time. I barely make $70K a year now but I am much happier. I know all about cost and how corporations work.

I sold the yacht in 2001.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider


Mostly with people who like to give the impression that they know that which they do not. Obviously there are costs associated with what you do. There is the cost of your supplies, your education (self taught or otherwise). There are probably a hundred material things which go into what you and people like you do, but I can use your reasoning to state what a DVD costs, and use that as an example of how you are abusing others by trying to get rich. After all that disk costs less than a buck, less than that bag of saline. How's that yacht?

I know all about cost, more than most. I started out 20 years ago as an electrical engineer. I went to work at Sandia Labs where budget was nothing. If I designed something to work the best possible way then I was given the budget to pay for it regardless of cost. I left there to be closer to my aging parents to take a job at GE. There I found out all about cost. I was asked to design a lot of things, a lot of the designs I submitted were returned because while they were correct for the job they were too expensive. I was told to cut cost, even if it hurt the final product, shave off all I could to make things last just long enough. I did that for almost 10 years before I quit. I decided I had enough, that I wasn't going to compromise safety or quality just so the CEO could get a bigger bonus. I finished my last project and walked out, ending a $320K+ yearly salary. Instead I went back to what I wanted to do years ago but the industry wasn't developed at the time. I barely make $70K a year now but I am much happier. I know all about cost and how corporations work.

I sold the yacht in 2001.

Impressive. I don't know much about engineering compared to you, so I would hardly presume to tell you the particulars of that job and without data dare to say what is outrageous or not.

With health care our situations are reversed. I've seen what it takes to deliver health care and you have not. I know almost no one who makes 320k+ a year yet you claim we do it to become rich. The vast majority of us never could afford that yacht. Without any point of reference you have decided based on what you cannot know just what "too much" is.

That's rather disingenuous.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
With health care our situations are reversed. I've seen what it takes to deliver health care and you have not. I know almost no one who makes 320k+ a year yet you claim we do it to become rich. The vast majority of us never could afford that yacht. Without any point of reference you have decided based on what you cannot know just what "too much" is.

That's rather disingenuous.

I am not saying that the people who do the work like doctors and nurses are paid too much. I am referring to the health care corporations that inflate prices unnecessarily. I doubt if health care corporations believe in sending down savings to the patients or spending it on increasing doctors pay. Instead they inflate the cost of health care unnecessarily to keep their own pockets full.

A good example is health care equipment. I bought my dad a pulse OX meter , the cost was over $100. Just one of those things you place on the finger and it reads O2 levels, doesn't take blood pressure or anything else. The components for such a device are under $15. I realize that there are development cost but I just can't see how they can increase the profit by over 600% . That is the kind of thing I am referring to.

 

[shadow9d9]

Free clinics will not stop insurances from dropping people when they actually have to pay up for cancer... they will continue to drop people because they previously had acne.