Are Civilian Targets Legitimate?

[Witling]

One of the members of this board asked this question in another post about an an article describing how French reporters filmed a rocket attack on a civilian contract plane.
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"Are civillians working for the military legitimate targets in a war zone? The US military and any military has always attacked the enemies logistical capability from the Ho Chi Minh trail (probably tens of thousands of civillian porters/truck drivers/ etc. killed to Iraqi Bridges, tankers, merchant ships, etc in Gulf War 1 and 2. I dont' see how this is an atrocity or any different from say an imbedded reporter."

Personally, I think this is a complex question. Too complex to answer simply here. But, I know there are a lot of people on this board who do have simple answers. This is the place to post them.

 

[alchemize]

What is your complex answer Whitling?

I don't have a simple answer. I just picked sides.

 

[busmaster11]

Everything is fair game to bush and his goons. They can justify anything in the name of "protecting American interests."

Personally I believe it is important to set a moral example...

 

[miguel]

Sure they are legitimate targets.

I think the problem people had with the french reporters filming is that they went along with filming while an attack was taking place against the "good guys." I've read that those reporters (the french ones) were scared sh!tless when they did it, too afraid to protest out of fear of being shot.

The problem with the example of the DHL plane is that I think the people who did it would have shot down anything that happened to be in the air, even if it was a UN plane or a red cross plane. Kinda like how the same buildings by those organizations were bombed.

 

[Miramonti]

It depends how desperate one is to overcome an abusive oppressor imo. Certain oppressors or oppressive regimes in the history of this world should be stopped or targeted at all costs.

In reality there isn't much difference between civilians and military,

Civilians are yesterdays and tomorrows military and

The military is yesterdays and tomorrows civilians.

Everyone is somebodies daughter or son, or somebody's father or mother, regardless of the kind of clothes they wear and who gives them their paycheck.

 

[SuperTool]

Whatever it takes. Anyone who tells you otherwise it's just a bunch of sour grapes.

 

[Red Dawn]

I think from an Iraqi's pespective all Westerners whether they are in the Military or not are invaders so all would be legitimate targets. I know that they couldn't pay me enough to go there and work for any company.

 

[miguel]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I think from an Iraqi's pespective all Westerners whether they are in the Military or not are invaders so all would be legitimate targets. I know that they couldn't pay me enough to go there and work for any company.

Funny you say that. I just saw an email with job openings in Iraq. The pay is really good I hear.

Anyway, you probably shouldn't group all "Iraqi's" together like that. I'm sure there a decent people there too.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Actively assisting the enemy makes you the enemy. Passively assisting the enemy (for instance, by not turning him over but not helping him either) makes you a lot of things, but a legitimate target is not one of them.

 

[ITJunkie]

What's a Tagret?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: miguel

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I think from an Iraqi's pespective all Westerners whether they are in the Military or not are invaders so all would be legitimate targets. I know that they couldn't pay me enough to go there and work for any company.

Funny you say that. I just saw an email with job openings in Iraq. The pay is really good I hear.

Anyway, you probably shouldn't group all "Iraqi's" together like that. I'm sure there a decent people there too.

What is your definition of "Decent?" You don't think that some of these insurgents believe that they are Patriots and are willing to sacrifice their lives for their children and fellow Countrymen?

 

[Witling]

Miguel, I'm starting to have problems here. You say "shouldn't group all "Iraqi's" together like that. I'm sure there a decent people there too." Holy cucarachas. Try and expand your horizons a little. The people who are killing our troups may be "decent people." They just don't like invaders. To oppose what we want doesn't take you out of the realm of being "decent."

 

[miguel]

Originally posted by: Whitling
Miguel, I'm starting to have problems here. You say "shouldn't group all "Iraqi's" together like that. I'm sure there a decent people there too." Holy cucarachas. Try and expand your horizons a little. The people who are killing our troups may be "decent people." They just don't like invaders. To oppose what we want doesn't take you out of the realm of being "decent."

Well, I would if I were some kind of global journalist trying to maintain balance, but I'm not. I'm an American and I believe that the killing of American soldiers is wrong. I'll make no bones about that.

Just like I think the Nazis were not decent and the Japanese imperialists were not decent, I do not think that those who battle the US soldiers are decent. What's the problem there?

Red: What do I mean by decent? I mean people who want to make their country better and turn into something better than what it is now, and don't go around hating Americans. I'm sure they see themselves as Patriots, no doubt. But I again, I'm not in their shoes and this is my OPINION, so what?

 

[Witling]

Miguel, maybe we could express your belief as, "My country, right or wrong." Personally, I'd rather work to have my country right and say something when it's wrong.

 

[rchiu]

I don't know what is the big deal about French reporters shooting the film of DHL plane being attacked. I mean how many people filmed the planes crashed into the twin towers and how many news networks shown that over and over, why was that not a problem?

About if civilian targets are legitimate, well war itself is barbaric by nature and if you want something civil, battle field is not the place to look. You can talk about legitimacy all you want, but the fact is nobody is gonna care when their live is on the line and winning the war is everything.

US soldiers shooting Iraqi citizens by mistake, that happens in a battle field. Iraqi resistance killing civilian contractor, that happens in a battle field. You can argue one side does it intentionally and one side does not all you want, but you cannot change the fact that it is something either side have to do to win the war, and winning the war is everything to both side.

War is barbaric and if you don't like it, don't start it. Seems like some people in this forum expect American to start a war with a country and the country will just throw flowers and welcome them and everything will just be civil and orderly. Some people really watch one movie too many.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: miguel

Originally posted by: Whitling
Miguel, I'm starting to have problems here. You say "shouldn't group all "Iraqi's" together like that. I'm sure there a decent people there too." Holy cucarachas. Try and expand your horizons a little. The people who are killing our troups may be "decent people." They just don't like invaders. To oppose what we want doesn't take you out of the realm of being "decent."

Well, I would if I were some kind of global journalist trying to maintain balance, but I'm not. I'm an American and I believe that the killing of American soldiers is wrong. I'll make no bones about that.

Just like I think the Nazis were not decent and the Japanese imperialists were not decent, I do not think that those who battle the US soldiers are decent. What's the problem there?

Red: What do I mean by decent? I mean people who want to make their country better and turn into something better than what it is now, and don't go around hating Americans. I'm sure they see themselves as Patriots, no doubt. But I again, I'm not in their shoes and this is my OPINION, so what?

Well hating what one perceives as invaders seems natural to me just like we hate those who hate us. Do I like the Iraqi's? Well after seeing them dance in the streets to celebrate 9/11 I don't. In fact I don't think liberating them is worth one American life, especially if they don't see it as liberation

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: miguel

Originally posted by: Whitling
Miguel, I'm starting to have problems here. You say "shouldn't group all "Iraqi's" together like that. I'm sure there a decent people there too." Holy cucarachas. Try and expand your horizons a little. The people who are killing our troups may be "decent people." They just don't like invaders. To oppose what we want doesn't take you out of the realm of being "decent."

Well, I would if I were some kind of global journalist trying to maintain balance, but I'm not. I'm an American and I believe that the killing of American soldiers is wrong. I'll make no bones about that.

Just like I think the Nazis were not decent and the Japanese imperialists were not decent, I do not think that those who battle the US soldiers are decent. What's the problem there?

Red: What do I mean by decent? I mean people who want to make their country better and turn into something better than what it is now, and don't go around hating Americans. I'm sure they see themselves as Patriots, no doubt. But I again, I'm not in their shoes and this is my OPINION, so what?

I have trouble believing that very many (influential?) people in the Islamic world have any interest in bettering the human condition. I also have trouble believing that people like al-Douri (former general under Saddam regime, widely believed to be a, if not the, leader of the insurgents) and terrorist groups like Ansar al-Islam are "decent" people. I don't think either have the best interests of the people at heart.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: miguel

Originally posted by: Whitling
Miguel, I'm starting to have problems here. You say "shouldn't group all "Iraqi's" together like that. I'm sure there a decent people there too." Holy cucarachas. Try and expand your horizons a little. The people who are killing our troups may be "decent people." They just don't like invaders. To oppose what we want doesn't take you out of the realm of being "decent."

Well, I would if I were some kind of global journalist trying to maintain balance, but I'm not. I'm an American and I believe that the killing of American soldiers is wrong. I'll make no bones about that.

Just like I think the Nazis were not decent and the Japanese imperialists were not decent, I do not think that those who battle the US soldiers are decent. What's the problem there?

Red: What do I mean by decent? I mean people who want to make their country better and turn into something better than what it is now, and don't go around hating Americans. I'm sure they see themselves as Patriots, no doubt. But I again, I'm not in their shoes and this is my OPINION, so what?

I have trouble believing that very many (influential?) people in the Islamic world have any interest in bettering the human condition.

If that were true what chance do he have at bettering it for them?

I also have trouble believing that people like al-Douri (former general under Saddam regime, widely believed to be a, if not the, leader of the insurgents) and terrorist groups like Ansar al-Islam are "decent" people. I don't think either have the best interests of the people at heart.

You are probably right. But I am willing to bet that some of those who aren't members of a Terrorist Group, Fedeyeen ot the Bath Party do believe that they are fighting against what they perceive as the enemy of the Iraqi People.

During the Vietnam War many of the NVA regulars were as much a Patriot as the American Revolutionaries. As for them being plain evil, how do you explain the Vietnamese over throwing the muderous Pol Pot Regime to end the Genecide there? The UN didn't do it, the Chinese didn't do it and we sure as hell didn't do it. If it weren't for the Vietnamese many more would have been Murdered in Cambodia.

I guess it's easier to villify those who have taken arms up against us than it is to try and understand them. When we label them as something less than human, something so evil that when we do kill them it's like they deserve it and we feel no remorse. Of course what is good for the Goose is good for the Ganderr so we must assume that they do the exact same thing with us. That's why to them targeting Civilians is no different than targeting Uniformed Soldiers. To them we are less than human and evil, deserving of every death they reap upon us.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Actively assisting the enemy makes you the enemy. Passively assisting the enemy (for instance, by not turning him over but not helping him either) makes you a lot of things, but a legitimate target is not one of them.

Excellent and succinct.


I'll just add, for historical perspective, the British had trained "Irregulars" to shoot all British Fratinizers should the germans have invaded in addition to plan and act out terror tactics against thier occupiers.