Are cars copyrighted?

[jlee]

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/20/automakers-gearheads-car-repairs/

Interesting perspective- automakers trying to use copyright law to prohibit ECU modification.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Wouldn't suprise me one bit if there was an EULA for a Tesla

 

[Smoblikat]

Screw that, its the same logic that M$ tried to use to stop people from modding their 360's.

If I buy something, I own it and can do whatever I want with it.

 

[Phanuel]

Audi already TD1s you after a flash. I'm sure BMW does the same thing. How hard is it for car manufacturers to get better at just tracking it? It really only affects turbo and supercharged engines as the makers leave performance on the table.

 

[Midwayman]

If they rule they are copyrighted it would have dire consequences for the repair industry. All they'd need to do is put some trivial encryption on the ecu and you'd no longer be able to diagnose at an independent shop.

 

[996GT2]

Audi already TD1s you after a flash. I'm sure BMW does the same thing. How hard is it for car manufacturers to get better at just tracking it? It really only affects turbo and supercharged engines as the makers leave performance on the table.

It's always a cat and mouse game. Whenever the manufacturer develops a new way of tracking an ECU modification, the tuner companies will come up with a way to hide their tune from being tracked. So it's not really very effective. Plus the owner could always reflash the stock ECU before going in for a warranty claim.

 

[EightySix Four]

While there is an issue regarding warranties and engine damage derived from tuning the motor, there are other things at stake that always give me pause when I get too riled up about these. Modern PCMs have access to so many functions on the car including power steering, braking, throttle, suspension tuning, etc - many of these functions for safety.

People could certainly (by accident or maliciously) change those systems in such a way that they no longer function or, even worse, malfunctions during normal driving. A funny example of this is the CTS-V that had OnStar go off thinking there had been a wreck because it accelerated so hard - think if a similar incident makes a car think there is an impending wreck and it pre-brakes and sets off secondary airbags or any number of other systems.

Integrated systems behave in weird ways when variables are changed outside of their normal operating specs. Manufacturers should be prepared for this, but all it takes is one bad series of events and they will most certainly be named as culpable in the lawsuit.

As someone with HPTuners and a mind for tinkering, I'd hate to see a world where we can't do that. As a realist, I know that time will be here eventually, at least from a legal standpoint.

 

[Phanuel]

It's always a cat and mouse game. Whenever the manufacturer develops a new way of tracking an ECU modification, the tuner companies will come up with a way to hide their tune from being tracked. So it's not really very effective. Plus the owner could always reflash the stock ECU before going in for a warranty claim.

Current word on the street is that there is a flash counter in a separate ECU area that can't be modified. So the dealer just sees a counter # that does not agree with TSB mandated flashes and flags you TD1 regardless of the current ecu programming.

 

[EightySix Four]

Current word on the street is that there is a flash counter in a separate ECU area that can't be modified. So the dealer just sees a counter # that does not agree with TSB mandated flashes and flags you TD1 regardless of the current ecu programming.

That's when you end up with things like the JB4 for BMW, it doesn't flash anything, it just lies to the ECU and does it's own thing on the harness.

 

[Phanuel]

That's when you end up with things like the JB4 for BMW, it doesn't flash anything, it just lies to the ECU and does it's own thing on the harness.

And we're ending up with those on the Audi side. They don't yet interface with the fuel sensors so they're running dangerously lean at times but I'm sure they'll improve.

 

[NutBucket]

Why shouldn't they try to prevent ecu modification? If you blow up the car as a result of altering the tune why should they be responsible (assuming a warranty is involved).

 

[OVerLoRDI]

Integrated systems behave in weird ways when variables are changed outside of their normal operating specs. Manufacturers should be prepared for this, but all it takes is one bad series of events and they will most certainly be named as culpable in the lawsuit.

I'm actually more worried about this, not the average Joe trying to change his spark plugs or someone chipping their engine. I deal with integrated/embedded systems software part of my job (Copiers). The level of complexity that exists within the software of these platforms (copiers, cars, etc) is accelerating at a staggering rate. Cool new features/functionality is fun and nifty, but the bugs that are uncovered can be just unbelievable.

To your point, the software in these integrated systems/firmware can behave very strange when a certain combination of external variables lines up. The issues are really hard to troubleshoot and isolate and then development to resolve and then the hard part deployment. As a result they are often missed during QA and the software ships with weird bugs that only appear under a certain weird combination of input.

Example:
We recently had to upgrade a fleets firmware to provide a new energy saver functionality (scheduled awake, rather than time out). This new firmware gave us the functionality we were looking for, but gave us a ton of other weird intermittent errors.. So we are now undoing that.

Apply the same scenario to a car? Makes me nervous, not of modifications, but what comes from the manufacturer in the first place...

 

[jlee]

Why shouldn't they try to prevent ecu modification? If you blow up the car as a result of altering the tune why should they be responsible (assuming a warranty is involved).

They shouldn't be (and aren't unless someone hides their modifications in an attempt to fraudulently make a warranty claim), but that is already the case without involving copyright law.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

That's when you end up with things like the JB4 for BMW, it doesn't flash anything, it just lies to the ECU and does it's own thing on the harness.

I believe VW/Audi is now looking at fuel pressure, etc other stuff to determine if your car is running out of spec.

Or so ive heard on Vortex

 

[Imported]

I believe VW/Audi is now looking at fuel pressure, etc other stuff to determine if your car is running out of spec.

Or so ive heard on Vortex

Heard the same thing. They're looking for abnormalities.

 

[leper84]

If you mod your car, you void that point of the warranty. Its almost fraud when you go to such lengths to fool the manufacturer; you've got to pay if you want to play.

Automakers should stop this copyright bs and just continue voiding warranties, but I'd guess its the people who want to have their cake and eat it too are going to ruin it for everyone.

 

[Imported]

Depends what you modify. Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act helps with flat out denial of warranty work just cause there is a modification.

 

[NutBucket]

Put it this way. How can you prove increasing boost caused a rod bearing to spin? How can you prove it didn't?

 

[jlee]

Put it this way. How can you prove increasing boost caused a rod bearing to spin? How can you prove it didn't?

Can't really either way, but that's a lubrication failure. If a car came at 12psi from the factory and you run 30psi and then show up for a warranty claim with a broken ringland..well..I would say it is "likely" to be the cause.

 

[Phanuel]

And that's where we're at as enthusiasts right now.

Having an engine failure due to a tune like your ringland? Sure, that warranty is void.

Having a water pump or a fuel pump died because it was designed poorly without a tune? No problem, warranty work.

Having the same pump die with an engine under a tune? Good luck proving your tune had nothing to do with that even if it was a part under an active recall.

Batch of turbos recently have been recalled as manufactured incorrectly. And VW has a history of water pumps and fuel pumps with issues. As well as BMW with the HPFP if I recall. These are items that should be warranty repaired despite anything else having been done as they were most likely going to fail anyhow.

 

[leper84]

Batch of turbos recently have been recalled as manufactured incorrectly. And VW has a history of water pumps and fuel pumps with issues. As well as BMW with the HPFP if I recall. These are items that should be warranty repaired despite anything else having been done as they were most likely going to fail anyhow.

Again, pay to play. I'm not saying a tune should void the warranty on something trivial like an alternator or radio or even airbags. But if you want to modify the drivetrain, thats a risk you're taking.

 

[KentState]

Again, pay to play. I'm not saying a tune should void the warranty on something trivial like an alternator or radio or even airbags. But if you want to modify the drivetrain, thats a risk you're taking.

Agree with you. IMO, if you are going to mod your car, do it early and get the enjoyment out of it. If it's going to pop, it's going to pop early. It would have probably popped after the warranty runs out if you wait anyways.

 

[Zenmervolt]

If they rule they are copyrighted it would have dire consequences for the repair industry. All they'd need to do is put some trivial encryption on the ecu and you'd no longer be able to diagnose at an independent shop.

(1) The code is already copyrighted.

(2) The OBDII mandate requires that the error codes be reported in a standardized manner, so diagnostic use would not be affected unless the manufacturer was OK with violating federal law.

What the automakers want to be able to do is encrypt the main programming so that it's read-only and external tuners cannot alter things like the fuel maps, ignition timing, or allowable boost pressures. The DMCA would give them the ability to halt the sale of devices that were able to do anything beyond what a basic OBDII scanner can already do without licensing the underlying code from the manufacturer.

ZV

 

[Jimzz]

Problem is this is not just cars but John Deere and others also doing the same to keep people from working on their own vehicles.

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

Car makers and others like John Deere say you do not own 100% of your car/vehicle since their software is in it.

 

[Raduque]

Guess I'm gonna have to buy an MPT and some tunes sooner rather than later.

I wish all this automatic braking, lane change avoidance, whatever else "computer controls the car's hardware" bullshit would just stop. It's more crap for people to blame instead of themselves because they don't know how to drive.