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Are all liberals this confused?

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,508
46
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I had lunch with a young lady this afternoon, and the topic turned to politics. Interesting how somebody that's attractive can become unattractive once politics come into play.

Here's a portion of her philosophy. Abortion is okay, but she's a vegetarian because she doesn't think we should kill animals, and she's also against capital punishment.

So I say, "So, it's okay to suck a fetus out of the mother's womb with a vacuum cleaner, but it's not okay if I want to hunt an elk for some meat? Or give a convicted murderer a lethal injection?"

That was pretty much the end of the discussion. ;)
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
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Anyone who sees things totally in black and white gets on my nerves, liberals and conservatives included.

Life is never that simple.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,508
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Isla,

Well, I'm sorry I got on your nerves. Perhaps the fact that my father kept my mother from going to her scheduled appointment at the abortion clinic has colored my thinking. Her life wasn't in danger; there were no indications of birth defects, and she certainly hadn't been raped. She just couldn't be "bothered" with a child at that time in her life. If any of the other three conditions had existed, I would have understood and perhaps even condoned an abortion.
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
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Precisely!

You just described a very specific circumstance. Not black and white at all. The choice to abort you would have been wrong.

Anyway, if this was an pro-life thread and not a liberal bashing thread, you should have said so.

I take offense when gross generalizations and insults are made.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,508
46
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To me, there is a very serious difference between shooting an animal for food and killing an unborn child. Call that black and white if you will.
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
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Are you saying all liberals believe exactly as she does?

I had no idea this chick was the Global Rep.

:confused:
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,508
46
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Hence the question, "Are all liberals . . . "

I don't know - why don't you tell me? What do you believe in?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Administrator
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
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Xerox Man -- Isla is right. Your thinking is not colored; it's hard drawn in black and white. You are entitled to your opinion, but you're a bit out of line when you insist that others conform to your ideas. Tell us about it again, after you've spent some time as a pregnant sixteen year old.
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
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I believe that we are all worthy in God's eyes (whether or not you believe in a Creator, we are equal).

I believe that it is wrong to judge others. Your very judgement of this girl further binds her to whatever mistakes she may be making.

Instead of being so appalled, why don't you take the time to find out why she feels as she does?

Perhaps you can help her to understand YOUR point of view.

All I know is that if you judge and condemn her, you judge and condemn yourself.

Is this too esoteric for you?
 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
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After reading Billions and Billions by Carl Sagan, I've recognized the futility of arguing issues where there is a strong &quot;black and white&quot;, &quot;right or wrong&quot; presence. One of the essays in that book talking about abortion and whether you can be both pro-choice and against abortions, talks about the &quot;slippery slope&quot; that is this issue. The simple facts of the matter are that 1) Pro-choice advocates don't like to talk a great deal about why they support late-term abortions, and 2) Pro-life advocates don't like to talk about border line cases like rape and why they don't support abortions in that case. As Sagan points out, once either side moves an inch from their extreme and absolute stance, they find themselves on a very slippery slope.

OK, now I was just using the abortion issue to demonstrate that when it comes to politics, there will be a lot of slippery slopes. A good political leader and a keen political observer and/or insider, will ride these slippery slopes. Is it OK to kill (hunt) animals? Well, what if the animals are endangered? What if there is a surplus of this animal with no known natural predator. When it comes to capital punishment, is it acceptable to punish vigilantes whose own philosophy is &quot;an eye for an eye&quot;? There are a lot of slippery slopes, and very few of the &quot;right&quot; decisions in politics (IMHO) are at the bottom or the top of these slopes, although that is where us humans are most comfortable residing in.

Anyway, I'm not taking sides in this thread, but I just thought I'd add some Sagan-esque thinking to it, so maybe there is a little less partisanship on this board, and a lot more partnership...which really is far more productive.

-GL
 

WetSprocket

Senior member
Mar 13, 2000
543
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<< Are all liberals this confused? >>



I think maybe in her mind(and not just hers) maybe you're the one who is confused.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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check me if i've got this all wrong, but it seems to me that Mr. Xerox wasn't having polite chit-chat with a co-worker, he was out on a date. And dating someone who has political or other views that directly conflict with yours isn't generally a good idea, IMHO. It's better to meet someone that is at least somewhat on the same wavelength as you on core beliefs: political, religious, and moral. It's not a black and white issue... it's an issue of common sense.

Unless of course you're the type that likes always having someone there of opposite views to pick a fight with ;)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,534
4,206
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Xerox Man, It is very important that you get past your confusion. Every time you scratch your head in wonder you sluff off billions of cells that a good clonemaster could turn into human beings. Of course murder on such a massive scale has no effect on you because you lack the critical imagination to understand that the potential of a skin cell is of as much significance as a fertilized ova. Without imagination to project a cell into the future as the wonderful human being you are, you can only see meaningless human tissue. Good heavens, think of the millions of people you ate at that lunch. No wonder she gave you the cold shoulder.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,508
46
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Harv,

I've got nothing but respect for ya, but let's be honest - I don't know any sixteen year old girls that are emotionally ready to be having sex at that age. And that's the only way you get pregnant in the first place. Yes, mistakes happen. But there are a lot of childless couples out there, and not enough adoptees to go around. How many people in your life have you known who've had to go through the adoption process? I've known two, and it both cases it took them SEVERAL YEARS just to get a child.

GL,

Pretty good point. I realize abortion isn't a black and white issue, but this person wasn't merely for abortion in cases of rape/incest/birth defect; she was for it as a matter of convenience.

 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
2
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Hmmmm Glenn... you just described my marriage.

Funny, but the ultra-conservative Mr Isla seems to dig it. He seems to think I've made him a better person.

I guess it comes down to what your definition of liberal is....

Anyway, I tried to adopt Mr Isla's ideology but I rejected that which was self-righteous and judgemental. I had to become more conservative in my lifestyle, if not in my thinking. We've managed to strike a sound balance, but I don't recommend this for everyone. You must be willing to really examine yourself and your beliefs to become....

A Moderate!

Bwahahahaha!

Uh-oh... I'm getting silly again. Time to say goodnight before I get banned for weird and unfathomable neffism....
 

8ball

Banned
Jun 3, 2000
927
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I don't like abortion. I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control. I don't think a woman should have one if she finds out her baby is going to be other than normal (mentally challanged, handicapped...). I don't think a woman should have one if her pregnancy is due to rape. I don't think a woman should have a late term. BUT I'm a man. So I don't think I have the right to tell a woman that she can't have one. I don't have the right to judge a woman if she does. I have the right to support the woman regardless of her choice.
 

Yo Ma Ma

Lifer
Jan 21, 2000
11,635
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Regardless of her politics, this person probably does not associate the fetus in the womb with a living person or thing, that is why her philosophy seems contradictory. Sometimes that will change as the person grows, ages and/or has a child, sometimes not.
 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
0
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Xerox Man,

I'm not against your views or anything. I'm just trying to point out that what happened in your situation (I assume the conversation just ended) is almost a God-send. It could have been worse...she could have tried arguing her points and sucked you into an actual debate.

I used to jump at the chance to debate these issues...honestly, after reading that Carl Sagan book, I find that many people just don't have what it takes to make the debate productive. What are they lacking? Personally, I believe it's the ability to look at an issue objectively with factual evidence - this pretty much eliminates using religious doctrine which is largely a basis for American-style Conservatism, and using politically-correct doctrine (for lack of a better term) that is largely a basis for American-style Liberalism. Carl Sagan did just this in the case of abortion (hate to use that as an example because that's now what this thread is about...but it really was quite a refreshing look at a subject with so much bias) and ends up discovering that he is Pro-Life but not against abortions at a certain stage in the pregnancy - it sounds nutty but pick yourself up the essay and it will seem like the most objective and unbiased look at this issue that you've ever seen.

It takes a lot of effort and rational thinking to ride the slippery slopes of issues, and again, I think this is over the head of a large portion of society. It's much easier to stick to an absolute position...there's not much thinking involved.

-GL

 

Sluggo

Lifer
Jun 12, 2000
15,488
5
81
Reminds me of my 2 favorite bumper stickers:

#1 Everyone who is in favor of abortion has already been born.

#2 If you can read this call your Mom and thank her for being Pro-Life
 

Valhalla1

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 1999
8,678
0
76
yeah, its like abortion is okay, we can kill innocent babies, but don't kill those murderes on death row! &quot;they have rights too!&quot;

fuc# that.



the innocent babies live.
the murderes die.
 

gUEv

Senior member
Oct 11, 2000
882
0
0
why cant we all just smoke herb and get along..?
i used to think i was a libretarian, now i define myself as a radical
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Administrator
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
29
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X Man -- << I don't know any sixteen year old girls that are emotionally ready to be having sex at that age. >>

Thanks for making my point. If a sixteen year old girl isn't emotionally prepared for sex, what makes you think she's ready to go through the trauma of pregnancy and motherhood? That has yet to stop either from occuring, so let's deal with something other than your hypothetical, ideal world.

Long before you get to childless couples and adoption, you have just forced a pregnant child-woman out of her childhood, out of her normal path of educational and social growth. Her education will be interrupted for at least a year, and after a pregnancy, she will carry a social burden that will never again allow her be viewed the same by her peer group, regardless of whether she keeps the baby or gives it up for adoption.

All your lovely philosophy about what could or should be falls to sh8 in the cold light of what is.

This liberal is not confused. Abortion is not a pretty idea, but there are many good reasons why terminating a particular pregnancy may be the best of available alternatives, none of which is desirable. Cold inflexibility is a not a solution. Embodying it into law is a sure recipe for disaster.
 

cxim

Golden Member
Dec 18, 1999
1,442
2
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Odd how things come together at odd times... I find myself in complete agreement with both Harvey &amp; Isla..
 

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