Are AC digital clocks accurate?

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,024
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Wondering because I just set my new Panasonic KX-TGE433B cordless phone system's time... to the second. Will it keep good time?

I'm looking at a VCR I bought in 1989 (right now it's not being used for anything but as a support stand for a tray of stuff and as a clock!), and it's drifted slow. I think it used to drift fast. Obviously it's AC. Wouldn't its clock lock to the AC frequency of 60 Hz? If so, wouldn't that be accurate and keep its clock accurate?
 

zzuupp

Lifer
Jul 6, 2008
14,866
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Wondering because I just set my new Panasonic KX-TGE433B cordless phone system's time... to the second. Will it keep good time?

I'm looking at a VCR I bought in 1989 (right now it's not being used for anything but as a support stand for a tray of stuff and as a clock!), and it's drifted slow. I think it used to drift fast. Obviously it's AC. Wouldn't its clock lock to the AC frequency of 60 Hz? If so, wouldn't that be accurate and keep its clock accurate?

You're assuming the power is always exactly 60 Hz. IIRC, during summer peak loads it can be like 59.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,024
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You're assuming the power is always exactly 60 Hz. IIRC, during summer peak loads it can be like 59.
Uhhuh, well there's my answer. The power company doesn't reliably supply 60.0000 hz.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,290
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There's probably more to it as well, my microwave reliably drifts forward in time, even during the winter months.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
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www.anyf.ca
They actually have an issue in Europe right now where the grid is running slow, so all the clocks are running slow too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij-JjzCa7o

Basically the more load on the grid the slower the turbines are spinning, synce they are all in sync due to magnetic forces they all slow down slightly, all together. When there is less load they go faster.

I would imagine some higher end clocks probably have an oven compensated crystal for the oscillator. Those would be more accurate. The crystal is basically kept at a specific temperature so it can't drift. I don't know if any consumer level stuff would have this though, but I have seen it in telecom, to keep data in sync between COs.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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Depends what you define as "accurate". How many seconds wrong over, say, one month do you consider accurate enough?

Such clocks virtually never try to use the 60Hz supply as a time reference. It is not good enough. The 60 Hz frequency does alter slightly from time to time, although not a lot and only for short periods. But what happens when power fails? For a period of minutes to many hours there is no 60 Hz signal to use. So, you need some timekeeping mechanism that is accurate for a significant time period before you get back your reference signal. If you can do that well, you don't need the reference signal in the first place.

MANY such systems now are built using quartz crystal oscillator chips. A suitable crystal of quartz (quite small) cut to an exact angle will have a VERY stable known natural oscillation frequency which does not vary much over a reasonable temperature range. So using that, the chip operates as an oscillator with a frequency tied to that stable source. This signal never quits unless the entire circuit loses power, in which case the clock it drives is dead and loses its settings. To guard against even that, many such systems use a small battery to keep the oscillator and its digital circuits live over extended time periods. Those circuits use very little power so a battery is suitable, and the higher-power circuits used to display the results are left to die in a power failure scenario, then re-start and display the current data when the can. These systems are so good they are better than many possible external references.

Even systems now that use external references (for example, to a clock signal from a cell phone service, or retrieving a time reference by internet from a national atomic clock service) do not use them constantly. They use their own internal stable clock circuits, and from time to time make one-tome spot checks for an update to correct their time reading if necessary.

For a good example of how accurate systems with NO external reference can be, look at modern wrist watches with no Wi-Fi capabilities. The one I have now goes wrong by maybe a second or two over a month. I check it using internet access to our nation's atomic clock signals via my desktop system and adjust it and my computer's clock as needed. This watch, given to me by my son (who knows I have a "thing" about correct time) has no replaceable battery - it's solar powered totally, and must have a small rechargeable battery for night time.

By the way, this is an interesting side note. Our national time service, in addition to making data available on the internet, broadcasts their signals on several radio frequencies. The time readings are "dead accurate" as can be, of course. The audio signal sent out is a series of beep tones. Each beep lasts exactly ½ second, spaced one second apart, and at a frequency of exactly 1 KHz. For each broadcast being sent out, the carrier frequency also is VERY accurate. So those signals contain accurate time and frequency references over several time scales.
 

deadlyapp

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2004
6,651
732
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They actually have an issue in Europe right now where the grid is running slow, so all the clocks are running slow too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij-JjzCa7o

Basically the more load on the grid the slower the turbines are spinning, synce they are all in sync due to magnetic forces they all slow down slightly, all together. When there is less load they go faster.

I would imagine some higher end clocks probably have an oven compensated crystal for the oscillator. Those would be more accurate. The crystal is basically kept at a specific temperature so it can't drift. I don't know if any consumer level stuff would have this though, but I have seen it in telecom, to keep data in sync between COs.
AFAIK this is not true. If the grid load changes, then they change the input to the turbines and the output of the generator always matches the load on the grid. Now, you can get some interesting things with power factor, where there are too many inductive loads on the system and the power factor can drift and affect other things.

Yes, there are other reasons why frequency can be affected but unless the total system is overloaded, then I don't think it will affect the spin of the generator.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
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They are referring to the US Gov't Time Service, WWV located in Fort Collins, Colorado. .. Ham operators tune in to these broadcasts very frequently. Here are the frequencies used by WWV .. The Pacific are is served from Kauai, Hawaii .. They are on the same frequencies as the state based station.

WWV operates in the high frequency (HF) portion of the radio spectrum. The station radiates 10 000 W on 5 MHz, 10 MHz, and 15 MHz; and 2500 W on 2.5 MHz and 20 MHz. Each frequency is broadcast from a separate transmitter. Although each frequency carries the same information, multiple frequencies are used because the quality of HF reception depends on many factors such as location, time of year, time of day, the frequency being used, and atmospheric and ionospheric propagation conditions. The variety of frequencies makes it likely that at least one frequency will be usable at all times.

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/radio-stations/wwv

https://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvhtour.html
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,080
32,373
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Running the time signal through one's stereo sounds awesome but also tends to annoy the neighbors.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
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I can pickup those stations from here if the atmospheric conditions are right, the first time I picked it up I thought it was kind of neat.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
69,801
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www.anyf.ca
Speaking of time, anyone know a good method of creating a stratum 1 time source? Our Symmetricom boxes at work are going to roll over in late 2018 and the company does not want to upgrade them. We already got the GPS antenna so it would just need to plug in. Does GPS provide actual time of day, or is it just a reliable "tick" source?

I kinda want to get my hands on one of those boxes when they decommission them. Would make a cool tear down. :p
 

Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,173
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I have clock displays on several of my networked audio players around the house. They get their time directly from my network audio server, which syncs its time daily with a NIST server. Those clocks are accurate to within a second. I use one of them in the bedroom for my morning alarm when I need one.

The clocks on my stove and microwave drift, but I make a habit of setting them once a month, so they're never off by more than a few seconds.
 

NAC4EV

Golden Member
Feb 26, 2015
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All my clocks I own are update by WWV located in Fort Collins, Colorado.
My Casio wrist watch is more accurate than the most expensive Rolex, sadly :( it only has a stainless steel case and band.
 
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PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
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You're assuming the power is always exactly 60 Hz. IIRC, during summer peak loads it can be like 59.

Basically the more load on the grid the slower the turbines are spinning, synce they are all in sync due to magnetic forces they all slow down slightly, all together. When there is less load they go faster.

AFAIK this is not true. If the grid load changes, then they change the input to the turbines and the output of the generator always matches the load on the grid. Now, you can get some interesting things with power factor, where there are too many inductive loads on the system and the power factor can drift and affect other things.

Yes, there are other reasons why frequency can be affected but unless the total system is overloaded, then I don't think it will affect the spin of the generator.

These statements all contain grains of truth, but there is a bit more to it that I will try to explain.

Interconnected power systems are designed to operate at an agreed upon nominal frequency (normally 50 Hz or 60 Hz; 60 Hz in North America). In order to maintain the nominal frequency, the amount of power being generated and inserted into the transmission system needs to exactly match the power being drawn out of the transmission system by (losses and) customer loads. Of course, the match is never quite exact -- customers are always switching loads on and off and utilities are therefore always altering generation to follow the changes (think of it as similar to balancing a broomstick in the palm of your hand). So the question becomes what is the result of these generation/load mismatches?

The answer is that the generation excesses or deficiencies are added to or drawn from energy stored in the power system. This energy is stored in all the rotating masses (i.e. spinning generators and motors) connected to the transmission system. The speed with which these rotating masses spin is tied to (and actually sets) the frequency of the power system. Excess generation will result in the rotating masses accelerating to a higher speed that takes the system frequency to above 60 Hz. Conversely, excess load will decelerate the rotating masses and take the system frequency below 60 Hz.

These mismatches between generation and load can not be allowed to persist for very long (i.e. must be dealt with in a few seconds) because the power system will otherwise start falling apart. Generators are therefore equipped with "governors" that act to increase their outputs slightly when they see a decrease in frequency and to decrease their outputs slightly when they see an increase in frequency. If you think about this a bit you will see that this governor action is always in a direction to counteract the mismatch. The result is that governor action reestablishes the balance between generation and load, and the power system is no longer accelerating or decelerating -- but it is no longer at exactly 60 Hz.

Governor action is only meant to be an immediate short-term fix. There are other (slower) control loops used by utilities to recognize when they need to adjust their generation to match their customer loads. Once the utilities make the adjustments, the frequency returns to 60 Hz.

So, you will only see prolonged deviations from 60 Hz when something is seriously out of wack. This can happen when a utility is having trouble meeting unexpectedly high customer loads (and implicitly leaning on the governor action from other generators to serve their customers), when several big generators trip out at about the same time, or when there are major disturbances to the transmission system.

Under normal conditions, the system frequency will generally stay within +/- 0.1 Hz of 60 Hz.

The integration over time of these small frequency deviations is called "time error" because it actually is the amount of time that a clock synchronized to the system frequency (i.e. a motor-driven clock) would gain or lose. This time error (at least here in the West) is normally kept in the range of +/-5 seconds.

All that said, there are very few (if any?) clocks that use electrical frequency to measure time.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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All that said, there are very few (if any?) clocks that use electrical frequency to measure time.
That surprises me. Then how do AC clocks keep time if not based on the frequency?

I really like your clear explanation of the governor aspect of the power generation/distribution systems. Well, intuitively I surmised that they might monitor the governor system and tweak it so that over time (i.e. hour to hour, or whatever), on balance (adding your pluses and minuses), there'd be no drift at all from an exact 60hz power transmission and that a system so regulated could be used to keep AC clocks very accurate indeed. Why don't they do this? Is it more trouble than I'm understanding?
 

zzuupp

Lifer
Jul 6, 2008
14,866
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All my clocks I own are update by WWV located in Fort Collins, Colorado.
My Casio wrist watch is more accurate than the most expensive Rolex, sadly :( it only has a stainless steel case and band.

My clock radio does this. I didn't know that when I bought it. When I got home, I had to RTFM because I could find a "set" button.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,024
9,685
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Most modern AC clocks use quartz oscillators and are not affected by the frequency of input power.
Older AC clocks use Synchronous motors and are affected by the frequency of the AC input line power.
I have a clock I ripped out of a clock radio around 30 years ago. I actually cut the whole clock radio in 1/2 so I could have that clock, which has an AC outlet at the back that can be used to turn on power at a set time, which I thought was a cool feature and I used it. That clock now sits on a high DIY shelf in my kitchen and is the only way I know how long a power outage lasts in my house. That clock seems to keep good time, but it's got analog hands (plus a sweep second hand!!!), so who knows? Imagine, a clock with hands! ----> L = 3:00 <---- Like that! I'm pretty sure that clock doesn't have a quartz crystal in it, but who knows?
 
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NAC4EV

Golden Member
Feb 26, 2015
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If it has a sweep second hand then I would expect to see a synchronous motor based timer.
If it had a jump second hand then I would expect to see a quartz based timer.
 

tynopik

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2004
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Most modern AC clocks use quartz oscillators and are not affected by the frequency of input power.
Older AC clocks use Synchronous motors and are affected by the frequency of the AC input line power.

this exactly

example old clocks include the kitchen timers on stoves and the ones in my old school classrooms that would sound class breaks

but quartz movements and digital timers are so cheap, no one bothers with that any more