Are 100,000 deaths a 'very good job'?

[Hayabusa Rider]

I have a question for anyone who wants to answer.

If the US exceeds every country on Earth combined in deaths would that still be considered a "good job"??

How would you know? Figures from China? Exactly what countries are reliable and to what degree?

Edit- This is really a poor question anyway because it's completely arbitrary. Precisely what number constitutes a "good job"? There isn't any because you enable Trump to say that Obama did a bad job with H1N1 simply because one more life might have been saved. When there's an accident where it could be expected that ten people were likely to die and only six did, do you think high fives are being passed around?

No, but four more lives were saved anyway. Bad job? Perhaps because not everyone pulled through.

Epidemics are uncaring. They don't care what party you belong to, if you think Trump is a demon or God Incarnate. They kill some and leave others. There is no fair, but given the dynamics of a situation expectations are had, just as unfair as the disease. A hundred thousand dead isn't a high five moment, it's a tragedy that one who has understanding gets that it could reasonably have been much worse and because of intervention and sheer dumb luck it wasn't ten times as bad.

 

[HomerJS]

How would you know? Figures from China? Exactly what countries are reliable and to what degree?

Edit- This is really a poor question anyway because it's completely arbitrary. Precisely what number constitutes a "good job"? There isn't any because you enable Trump to say that Obama did a bad job with H1N1 simply because one more life might have been saved. When there's an accident where it could be expected that ten people were likely to die and only six did, do you think high fives are being passed around?

No, but four more lives were saved anyway. Bad job? Perhaps because not everyone pulled through.

Epidemics are uncaring. They don't care what party you belong to, if you think Trump is a demon or God Incarnate. They kill some and leave others. There is no fair, but given the dynamics of a situation expectations are had, just as unfair as the disease. A hundred thousand dead isn't a high five moment, it's a tragedy that one who has understanding gets that it could reasonably have been much worse and because of intervention and sheer dumb luck it wasn't ten times as bad.

Yeah I know. It was aimed at people who are still claiming 100K is a good job.

 

[Atari2600]

I thought it was good that we limited H1N1 to the number of fatalities we had but Trump didn't think that was a very good job well done and you must logically agree with Trump on that.

???

If trump told me it was raining, I'd stick my hand out the window to find out.


As for supporting him.... I'm rather mystified the secret service hasn't done its duty to the country and shot the c**t by now.

 

[Jhhnn]

How would you know? Figures from China? Exactly what countries are reliable and to what degree?

Edit- This is really a poor question anyway because it's completely arbitrary. Precisely what number constitutes a "good job"? There isn't any because you enable Trump to say that Obama did a bad job with H1N1 simply because one more life might have been saved. When there's an accident where it could be expected that ten people were likely to die and only six did, do you think high fives are being passed around?

No, but four more lives were saved anyway. Bad job? Perhaps because not everyone pulled through.

Epidemics are uncaring. They don't care what party you belong to, if you think Trump is a demon or God Incarnate. They kill some and leave others. There is no fair, but given the dynamics of a situation expectations are had, just as unfair as the disease. A hundred thousand dead isn't a high five moment, it's a tragedy that one who has understanding gets that it could reasonably have been much worse and because of intervention and sheer dumb luck it wasn't ten times as bad.

That's ridiculous. Obama didn't ignore it & lie about it, claim it was a hoax, blame his predecessor or anybody else. He just did his best to stop it, then created institutional mechanisms so his successors could do better. Trump dismantled them. Trump's bullshit froze GOP governors in their tracks because they're scared shitless to cross him. He politicized it every inch of the way & now America will pay the price in overwhelmed healthcare systems & needless deaths. A mere 100K deaths is a fantasy scenario at this point. We'll be very lucky to hold it under 500K by the election.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

???

If trump told me it was raining, I'd stick my hand out the window to find out.


As for supporting him.... I'm rather mystified the secret service hasn't done its duty to the country and shot the c**t by now.

You can't have it both ways. If the epidemiology suggests that the best expectations (see the CDC) are 140K to 240K dead, but 100k die, that is better than might have been. Great? No. "Good job"? Like I said elsewhere if there is a major accident and 10 "won't make it" because of their condition but 4 live of those 10, no one is going to go around high fiving.

And this goes back to your politics. Trump said that Obama did not do a good job because of the 10 thousand plus who didn't make it although many many more "should" have died. This is substantially your argument with 100k dying if the CDC predicts many more dead. Both Obama and Trump could have saved just one more life, or ten or maybe a thousand- Who knows? That's a foolish game to play IMO but if you are going to anyway then everyone gets held to the same standard, save or don't save and the numbers aren't relevant to that moral judgement.

High fives? No. Good job? that's pretty much a stupid thing to invoke. It's a success in that it could have been worse but it's a tragedy that anyone died at all.

Is Trump an idiot? Of course and if you had bothered to follow along where people stand regarding him you'll see a lack of regard on my part. He should have acted earlier and pretty much all his policies suck. Still the disease would come here and we're a "move stuff around or die" society it MUST spread nationally. When was the last time you drove through a substantial portion of the US? I don't mean a tiny UK sized slice but a Maine to Florida or LA to NY, or even half that? You would have seen things moving along in numbers that dwarf wherever you live. It's not bragging, it's not ME vs YOU, it's the economics of living in a country this side of a widely varied climate.

The demographics, terrain and more spread the disease and none of us, me nor you, have a good workable solution.

Trump is still and idiot.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

That's ridiculous. Obama didn't ignore it & lie about it, claim it was a hoax, blame his predecessor or anybody else. He just did his best to stop it, then created institutional mechanisms so his successors could do better. Trump dismantled them. Trump's bullshit froze GOP governors in their tracks because they're scared shitless to cross him. He politicized it every inch of the way & now America will pay the price in overwhelmed healthcare systems & needless deaths. A mere 100K deaths is a fantasy scenario at this point. We'll be very lucky to hold it under 500K by the election.

Did I say Obama lied? Put your partisan hard-on back in your shorts and stop galloping your Gish, introducing topics never part of my point. FYI I thought Obama did a proper job. Trump is stupid and his policies I've already commented on and condemned. Back in your cage if you feel the need to be an addled bull in a china shop.

 

[Atari2600]

You can't have it both ways. If the epidemiology suggests that the best expectations (see the CDC) are 140K to 240K dead, but 100k die, that is better than might have been. Great? No. "Good job"? Like I said elsewhere if there is a major accident and 10 "won't make it" because of their condition but 4 live of those 10, no one is going to go around high fiving.

For a supposed medical professional, you sure aren't good at understanding how endemics or pandemics work.

They (CDC) released those projections this/last week.

Do you really think that if this had been managed correctly from the start you'd be looking at anything like those numbers?*

That's the problem. The mistakes that have been made to now are irrecoverable. Any projections from now bake in those mistakes.


*I should probably answer this as its unlikely you'll arrive at anything close to the right answer under your own steam. No is the answer. For every week Trump fucked around, you could probably divide the figure by a factor of at least 2.

 

[IronWing]

Don't worry guys! Help is on the way! Trump had allowed the navy to use its ships to deliver 200,000 masks to new York...


where they will be distributed to the private sector to be sold to the public sector!

Fucking brilliant!!!


Good job indeed!

Why would one need a ship for 200k masks? That is likely less than one trailer load.

 

[JSt0rm]

most of us knew trump would fuck up some really serious shit and didnt vote for him. The chuds, red states, fygm types and a crappy electoral college insured the world was fucked in 2016.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

For a supposed medical professional, you sure aren't good at understanding how endemics or pandemics work.

They (CDC) released those projections this/last week.

Do you really think that if this had been managed correctly from the start you'd be looking at anything like those numbers?

That's the problem. The mistakes that have been made to now are irrecoverable. Any projections from now bake in those mistakes.

Death projections have been out there before last week. This is the Trump sanitized version. It had been at 140k for a lower end of a very uncertain projection. What you say is true to one degree or another so that's pretty easy to grasp out of the gate.

So...

Congratulations! Given the realistic nature of our society and economics in the US, you have this crisis. How many will die on your watch? Oh, give reasons besides "but Italy". Nope. Good old USA, warts and all. How do your methods consistent with what you have to work within our reality pan out, have you really stopped the virus and how, and have you really prevented these deaths or have you shifted the timeline. How do you know it?

Would you deserve a high five if 90k died instead of 100,000? Good job?

What all of this comes down to NOW is how the professionals deal with the reality but you refuse to do that and go back to "If I were President", which is not what we have to deal with. Trump is an idiot, his policies were terrible and OF COURSE the past impacts the present. You think Fauci had a "win" scenario?

So, you are President and you need to stop the spread in the US in a highly mobile society WITH A VIRUS THAT INFECTS BEFORE IT CAN BE KNOWN in a great many cases. You don't get to duck that.

Fix things based on what you could have known, why does it work, how do you know it would, and how many die?

Good luck with that. Oh, no "BUT TRUMP" because we know he screwed up.

 

[echo4747]

Its simply extremely premature to say one way or another whether or not the United States has done a good job with this pandemic.

 

[Atari2600]

So, you are President and you need to stop the spread in the US in a highly mobile society WITH A VIRUS THAT INFECTS BEFORE IT CAN BE KNOWN in a great many cases. You don't get to duck that.

[1] Simple answer was to put every arrival from any country that had the virus into a mandatory 2 week quarantine right back in January/February. With draconian punishment for those that didn't.

As you should well know, every... I hesitate to use the term 'index patient'; but you get what it means here - for every index patient that is stopped from spreading, down the line, you are looking at between hundreds and thousands of cases less.

[2] After that, you are looking at ramping up production of PPE, ventilators and establishing covid hospitals to isolate carriers from everyone else.

[3] Putting a bit of panic into the population early and overshooting is better than being complacent and undershooting. You can relax more stringent measures - but as we see now - you can't catch up if you get behind the curve. So press releases in late Jan should have been to the effect of "this is possibly the deadliest threat to the continental US that we have faced over the last 100 years, everyone needs to get ready for potential lockdown. Get long term provisions in and be ready. We aren't going to lockdown for the next 3-4 weeks, so there will be time to accumulate foodstuffs, but beware it is likely coming."

 

[Atari2600]

Its simply extremely premature to say one way or another whether or not the United States has done a good job with this pandemic.

Ehhh no - they've done a f**king shit job. As said earlier - decisions made (or not made as the case may be) last month simply cannot be recovered.

A shit job that will only get worse, not better.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

[1] Simple answer was to put every arrival from any country that had the virus into a mandatory 2 week quarantine right back in January/February. With draconian punishment for those that didn't.

As you should well know, every... I hesitate to use the term 'index patient'; but you get what it means here - for every index patient that is stopped from spreading, down the line, you are looking at between hundreds and thousands of cases less.

[2] After that, you are looking at ramping up production of PPE, ventilators and establishing covid hospitals to isolate carriers from everyone else.

[3] Putting a bit of panic into the population early and overshooting is better than being complacent and undershooting. You can relax more stringent measures - but as we see now - you can't catch up if you get behind the curve. So press releases in late Jan should have been to the effect of "this is possibly the deadliest threat to the continental US that we have faced over the last 100 years, everyone needs to get ready for potential lockdown. Get long term provisions in and be ready. We aren't going to lockdown for the next 3-4 weeks, so there will be time to accumulate foodstuffs, but beware it is likely coming."

All sounds good, but we could not know (due to the nature of the virus) who was infected and who was not and therefore it is impossible to lock down. Certainly those steps of early intervention would impact the curve in a positive way and any ordinary competent person qualified for the Office should have done all of these.

I sent you a PM to try to get an understanding and make the distinction between political nonsense of the GOP and Trump and the people who do the work to minimize and treat. HTH.

 

[ShookKnight]

Put it in perspective.

The third-leading cause of death in US most doctors don't want you to know about

More than 250,000 people in the US die every year because of medical mistakes, making it the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.

www.cnbc.com

• "A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.
• Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer."

EVERY FVCKING YEAR

This is horrible.

Worst yet, these people have been paying into a system / provider for health care that is suppose to be world class and the best.

Nope, dey ded.

Also worst yet, turds like Rand Paul are demanding social medicine is not offered in the US, yet he gets his medical care paid for AND he heads into Canada to get treatment. Disgusting. Utterly disgusting.

 

[Printed Circuit Bro]

I'll ask it one last time. Absent an answer you are just an official troll. What was the significant action Trump took in Jan? If you are so sure it should be no problem to just say it.

I never said "nothing" I said "no significant action"

I already know what he did or didn't do. You need to state for the forum what you know he did.

Now the argument changes from no action to nothing significant, which is still objectively wrong.

My response is that, if you can't even google such simple things and will stubbornly argue against what information easily and readily available, even if I DO link you, you'll just deny and argue anyway, no matter what the reality is.

Welcome to P&N, Printed Circuit Bro. Re: The bolded by me above. Sorry, but here, if you make a material claim and are challenged to back it up with CREDIBLE links, you must do so.

Please do so.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[Printed Circuit Bro]

Everyone please take notes. This is the MO of a Trump troll/bot. They make declarative statements without being able to back them up. Soon as you press them on any detail they either return to the rhetoric or they run away. The more vague then better for them

Ever notice when pressed for any detail Trump gives you vague generalities or answers yes/no at the same time leaving the real answer up for interpretation. That gives him the ability to deny anything later.

I'm not a Trump supporter. I'm not a republican. I'm not a conservative.

This is exactly what gives away your hand.

Anyone who disagrees with you or who doesn't froth at the mouth in rage, goose stepping against Trump in hysterics right along side you is a Trump supporter.

This is why you fail.

 

[ch33zw1z]

This guy!

 

[linkgoron]

Now the argument changes from no action to nothing significant, which is still objectively wrong.

His argument from the start was no significant action...

 

[Printed Circuit Bro]

His argument from the start was no significant action...

View attachment 19127

...which is still objectively wrong, thanks

 

[Starbuck1975]

@Starbuck1975 will think it's a very good job

Dr. Fauci is doing an exceptionally good job, which is the only reason I am scoring our response as high right now. Since you scored Dr. Fauci high as well, we are in violent agreement.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

This is now about Republicans:

-I keep deaths lower than if we just let the virus run its course.
-You are supposed to, you low expectations motherfvcker. What you want, a cookie or something?

So true, I was looking for this last week to respond to a dummy with. Thank you for posting it.

 

[zzyzxroad]

Why hasn't the administration stepped in during third time of war to streamline the procurement and distribution of medical equipment?

War time president my ass. trump has included 3M in his daily brags for weeks and now he slams them. He has either been slinging BS or out of touch. Ether way he isn't cut out to lead.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1245876816922972162

 

[blackangst1]

I'm not a Trump supporter. I'm not a republican. I'm not a conservative.

This is exactly what gives away your hand.

Anyone who disagrees with you or who doesn't froth at the mouth in rage, goose stepping against Trump in hysterics right along side you is a Trump supporter.

This is why you fail.

Welcome to P&N. If you disagree with the echo chamber, youre the enemy.

 

[ivwshane]

Welcome to P&N. If you disagree with the echo chamber, youre the enemy.

Maybe you’d like to supply the data that troll is unwilling to provide, or do trolls stick together?