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Are 100,000 deaths a 'very good job'?

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Are 100,000 deaths a 'very good job'?

  • No.

    Votes: 3 6.4%
  • Dear GOD no!

    Votes: 26 55.3%
  • Yes.

    Votes: 6 12.8%
  • ... but her e-mails....

    Votes: 12 25.5%

  • Total voters
    47

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
What could be done is to enact marshall law which would put us on par with other nations that have had better results. It's hard to force people to comply but if there are people who lock you up then yeah that would work.

Obviously Trump should have acted earlier but with our society and laws 100k is pretty good, because the disease is the disease. No excuses for politicians, least of all Trump, but there needs to be some division between politics and other things. Hell, we have a thread on right wingers derailing a train without any evidence at all, because right wing.

Keep health separate from politics when discussing the science of the contagion and yes Trump is a cluster.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
What’s interesting is if you look back Starbuck used to argue that the measures taken by other countries were effective but the US couldn’t implement them. After he was informed that was clearly nonsense he’s shifted to the idea that nothing at all could be done.
As I said Trump could enact emergency powers to force people into compliance at the point of a gun if necessary. Anything at all can be done. How well Americans would take to it is another matter. We could have the Mother of All Patriot "temporary" measures.
 

abj13

Senior member
Jan 27, 2005
832
436
136
Third coronavirus in 15 years, nothing could be done, meh.
3 coronaviruses
1 pH1N1
1 H5N1
Multiple Ebola outbreaks
Zika virus
Chikungunya virus

No, no one could have predicted this. Previous presidents wasted billions of dollars on pandemic responses. Millions of dollars wasted on researching these viruses. Previous presidents wasted spots on the National Security Council regarding pandemic responses. Previous presidents wasted time investing in positions in the CDC and other health agencies to identify viruses before they become a epidemic. There's simply no way any of this could have been prepared for /s

And yet, we have South Korea, Japan, Taiwan who were able to weather the initial storm.
 

Roger Wilco

Senior member
Mar 20, 2017
599
272
106
I don't know if any administration could keep the numbers as low as 100k. Trump has done a horrible job, but 100k seems like a miracle fantasy scenario.
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,224
1,373
136
What could be done is to enact marshall law which would put us on par with other nations that have had better results. It's hard to force people to comply but if there are people who lock you up then yeah that would work.

Obviously Trump should have acted earlier but with our society and laws 100k is pretty good, because the disease is the disease. No excuses for politicians, least of all Trump, but there needs to be some division between politics and other things. Hell, we have a thread on right wingers derailing a train without any evidence at all, because right wing.

Keep health separate from politics when discussing the science of the contagion and yes Trump is a cluster.
Any chance I could get you to walk around our fields for a few days?

It'd save us a clean fortune on diesel spreading slurry.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
3 coronaviruses
1 pH1N1
1 H5N1
Multiple Ebola outbreaks
Zika virus
Chikungunya virus

No, no one could have predicted this. Previous presidents wasted billions of dollars on pandemic responses. Millions of dollars wasted on researching these viruses. Previous presidents wasted spots on the National Security Council regarding pandemic responses. Previous presidents wasted time investing in positions in the CDC and other health agencies to identify viruses before they become a epidemic. There's simply no way any of this could have been prepared for /s

And yet, we have South Korea, Japan, Taiwan who were able to weather the initial storm.
Of course we could and did predict this. The ability to respond is independent of whatever variant comes up. Mobilize, identify, quarantine when warranted and enact ordinary infectious precautions backed by initial supplies far greater than we have and a plan in place to produce more.

This was a failure of our politicians, chief among them Trump.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,045
9,924
136
Significant action would not have stopped the spread. China cracked open the Wuhan economy and the virus popped up again. At some point we have to recognize this is a global pandemic, and our best hope is mitigation until a vaccine is found, but shutting down the globe indefinitely is naive.

No. This is a global pandemic. There is going to be a high body count.
Nobody is suggesting it would not have gotten here at all. I'm sure China is guilty of hiding facts even though Trump said they did a good job. South Korea got their first case the same day as us. You may want to drop your water carrying when we get the per capita death totals in a few months. Their decisive action helped flatten their curve.

BTW - We know what you consider a good job, at least under Trump. What would you consider a bad job?

I'll give you examples of what I consider a good job.

Not dismantling the pandemic response team
No eliminating the CDC infectious disease expert already embedded in Beijing China months before the pandemic began.
Talking control of the purchasing and distribution of medical supplies and PPE
Not sending mixed messages to the public on the danger or this virus
Passing and implementing the DPA back in Feb
Not allowing US citizens who returned from China to roam free in the US without quarantining while at the same time stopping Chinese nationals during the travel restrictions back in late Jan.
Not trashing medical workers accusing them of stealing supplies. They are putting their own lives in jeopardy trying to save others
Having enough test kits so we could identify early hot spots.
Being honest with the public.
There are many more examples

The body count is not the sole metric but the body count along with the lack of action, bad actions, along with the relative successes in other countries show Trump to be an utter failure.

I had no idea you no longer considered the United States the greatest country in the world. Now if you lower us to #73, then Trump's performance is acceptable.

P.S. Wow this guy just read my mind. Doctor gives Fox News lemmings brainwashed by Trump a dose of reality. Yes early actions would have pushed down our numbers. That would have been doing a "GOOD JOB"
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
Any chance I could get you to walk around our fields for a few days?

It'd save us a clean fortune on diesel spreading slurry.
No substance, no response, no thought. Figures.

I gave a possible response that COULD happen, not SHOULD. Where do you find in that law that this cannot be done?

BUT BUT BUT! Nevermind the buts, and you have your field well prepared with plenty of organic fertilizer.

OK. Stop people from moving around, period and if they don't? Spread diesel slurry.

As we are an inherently mobile society we will move around and this contributes to our problem in a major way. For good or ill S. Koreans are far more compliant to government mandates than us.

Of course you can prove otherwise?
 

abj13

Senior member
Jan 27, 2005
832
436
136
What could be done is to enact marshall law which would put us on par with other nations that have had better results. It's hard to force people to comply but if there are people who lock you up then yeah that would work.

Obviously Trump should have acted earlier but with our society and laws 100k is pretty good, because the disease is the disease. No excuses for politicians, least of all Trump, but there needs to be some division between politics and other things. Hell, we have a thread on right wingers derailing a train without any evidence at all, because right wing.

Keep health separate from politics when discussing the science of the contagion and yes Trump is a cluster.
Testing. If the early US response was widespread testing, I fully believe the results would have been different, as that has been a central theme to countries who demonstrated the capacity to flatten the curve. But the US rejected WHO tests. Why? Nobody takes responsibility. The US created their own crappy test which proceeded to fail. Then they came up with a different test, and couldn't get enough tests out there. Every location was restricted in who they could test (contact based testing, irregardless of the fact the patient had many of the symptoms), meaning many patients that could have been tested weren't. This has been a central theme across the US from physicians from the frontlines. The FDA restricted development of independent lab-developed tests until the beginning of March, which was too late. The fact that many tests in the US still have a turnaround time of 4 days makes it incredibly difficult to get ahead of the curve.

The leadership failed in this regard. Massively.
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,224
1,373
136
No substance, no response, no thought. Figures.
There are any number of things that could have been done better. Some of them are listed above by HomerJS.

Of course, I don't expect you to acknowledge any of them, but instead continue to bluster and bullshit.

- Why were big orders for PPE not placed in Jan, Feb at latest?
- Same for ventilators
- Why was there no advice to the public to reduce social contacts throughout Feb and most of March?
- Why were incoming travellers from China not placed under quarantine for 2 weeks - regardless of their nationality?

Nothing was going to *stop* it - but reducing transmission vectors early means so much less spread.


Of course, as a supposed medical professional you should know that. My scepticism of your qualifications and/or your aptitude for your job grows.


and all that is before we go near testing.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
There are any number of things that could have been done better. Some of them are listed above by HomerJS.

Of course, I don't expect you to acknowledge any of them, but instead continue to bluster and bullshit.
Obviously Trump should have acted earlier
No excuses for politicians, least of all Trump
Yes Trump is a cluster.
Now which of those is praising Trump? Excusing him? Talk about bullshit, OF COURSE THINGS COULD AND SHOULD have been done. The government was warned in 2018 about Trump clawing back emergency funds was setting us up for pandemic failure. I also put up a few things off hand that should be done and that takes nothing away from Homer.

Lastly Train driver = engineer
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,224
1,373
136
Now which of those is praising Trump? Excusing him? Talk about bullshit, OF COURSE THINGS COULD AND SHOULD have been done. The government was warned in 2018 about Trump clawing back emergency funds was setting us up for pandemic failure. I also put up a few things off hand that should be done and that takes nothing away from Homer.

Lastly Train driver = engineer
Obviously Trump should have acted earlier but with our society and laws 100k is pretty good, because the disease is the disease. "
"100k is pretty good"

Ehhh, lemme think about that - no.

100k is a disaster. You realise that would be around 40% more per head than the current Italian numbers?

If you saying 100k is pretty good is not an excuse for Trumps utter dereliction of duty, its hard to see what else it is.



A train driver is not an engineer. In the same mould that a receptionist in a surgery is not a doctor. Not my fault that you yanks fuck up the language.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,631
2,154
126
No, they aren't. Especially since 12,000 deaths (2009 H1N1) were deemed as something Obama should be locked up over.

Just to put it in perspective;
-100,000 COVID19 deaths V. 12,000 H1N1 deaths; 733% worse
-200,000 COVID19 deaths V. 12,000 H1N1 deaths; 1,566% worse

So, at his best, Trump is doing a 733% worse job than Obama with this pandemic.

Doesn't sound like a 'very good job' at all.

Sad!
Clutching at straws.
 
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Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,058
435
126
We are going to easily hit 100k just in NYC.

We will fall between 360K-1m. With a third coming from NYC/NJ/Conn.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
5,911
1,201
136
I think it's folly to define "very good job" by the number of deaths.

A very good job is always defined by how you handle adverse situation with what you have. Do you do all that you can with all the tools that you have at your disposal, or do you screw it up. Trump has failed miserably at this. US knew about the virus since December 31st 2019, Trump did nothing. CDC issues multiple warnings in early January 2020, Trump does nothing. February as the epidemic progresses Trump labels it a hoax and says it's been completely locked down and under control and will be completely gone by April. March multiple state governors issue stay at home orders and Trump wants to reopen the country by Easter.

In any other job an individual that ignored multiple warnings, lied about extent of the problem, and when faced with undeniable reality said he does not take any responsibility would have been fired from his job.

I don't know how many will die as a result of coronavirus, and I do not know how many would would have been spared if Trump administration acted earlier. What I do know is that Trump administration could have acted earlier, and there would be fewer dead if they did. So no, whatever the number is/will be, it will never be a good job.
 
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ondma

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2018
1,709
539
106
I think it's folly to define "very good job" by the number of deaths.

A very good job is always defined by how you handle adverse situation with what you have. Do you do all that you can with all the tools that you have at your disposal, or do you screw it up. Trump has failed miserably at this. US knew about the virus since December 31st 2019, Trump did nothing. CDC issues multiple warnings in early January 2020, Trump does nothing. February as the epidemic progresses Trump labels it a hoax and says it's been completely locked down and under control and will be completely gone by April. March multiple state governors issue stay at home orders and Trump wants to reopen the country by Easter.

In any other job an individual that ignored multiple warnings, lied about extent of the problem, and when faced with undeniable reality said he does not take any responsibility would have been fired from his job.

I don't know how many will die as a result of coronavirus, and I do not know how many would would have been spared if Trump administration acted earlier. What I do know is that Trump administration could have acted earlier, and there would be fewer dead if they did. So no, whatever the number is/will be, it will never be a good job.
And yet his approval rating is higher than ever. It absolutely blows my mind.

At least the media has stopped showing his daily campaign rallies disguised as "briefings."

I pretty much agree with all you have said. It is impossible to say what death toll is a "good" outcome. Bottom line is he dismanteled the infrastructure set up to deal with a pandemic, was slow to react when the data showed a danger, and still is sending mixed messages like the "go to church on Easter", "cure must not be worse than the disease" and his unending attacks on the media. He has backed away from the first two, but the damage has been done, in that the conservative media and right wing nut jobs continue to run with it.

Perhaps the worst of all, is not simply the specific steps he has taken (and lack there-of), but the division and distrust he has sown during his entire presidency, which makes it almost impossible to trust the scientists in charge and mount a united response to this, or any, national emergency.
 

Meghan54

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2009
9,475
2,282
136
You are living in a fantasy world because of your insatiable desire to #bothsides everything. We can and should have done better, but we failed. Time to start living in reality.
Well, you gotta cut him some slack on that....it's his job, after all...what he's paid to do. Say that only because no one could be as much of an ignorantly stupid fuck as he presents himself.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,018
4,763
126
A train driver is not an engineer. In the same mould that a receptionist in a surgery is not a doctor. Not my fault that you yanks fuck up the language.
he manages an engine rather than steering, you blokes fucked this one up.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
I think it's folly to define "very good job" by the number of deaths.

A very good job is always defined by how you handle adverse situation with what you have. Do you do all that you can with all the tools that you have at your disposal, or do you screw it up. Trump has failed miserably at this. US knew about the virus since December 31st 2019, Trump did nothing. CDC issues multiple warnings in early January 2020, Trump does nothing. February as the epidemic progresses Trump labels it a hoax and says it's been completely locked down and under control and will be completely gone by April. March multiple state governors issue stay at home orders and Trump wants to reopen the country by Easter.

In any other job an individual that ignored multiple warnings, lied about extent of the problem, and when faced with undeniable reality said he does not take any responsibility would have been fired from his job.

I don't know how many will die as a result of coronavirus, and I do not know how many would would have been spared if Trump administration acted earlier. What I do know is that Trump administration could have acted earlier, and there would be fewer dead if they did. So no, whatever the number is/will be, it will never be a good job.

It's all contextual. Trump hasn't done a good job but the CDC is predicting more, maybe whole lot more deaths. Is it good that people are dying? Only an idiot would think that's what 100k keeling over is.
 

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