Apple's Jobs blasts teachers unions

[Dumac]

Being a student in a Louisiana high school, I see flaws in the whole educations system, some which are included in the basic elements of contemporary public education. Even besides these already intergrated flaws, we have (especially in Louisiana) a surplus of lazy, dumb, or indifferent teachers being directed by (especially in Louisiana) unconcerned and unmotivated administrators and officials on the school board. Not to mention, all the problems aren't helped by the uncaring attitude or the lack of education of theparents at home. To truly be successful, I believe a complete overhaul of the public education system is needed, a route which could lead to many solutions, from more competition to more helpufl freedom. However, since this is unlikely, I believe that changes should at least be made at both the teacher and school board level.

Parents should also teach their kids at home, but it is difficult to enforce policies directing parenting at home. However, I think many will agree that home education is needed as a supplement of public education to reach a healthier level of critical thinking and intelligence.

 

[Pacemaker]

I had a teacher in high school who regardless of work would give you a grade based on if she liked you or not. If she liked you, you would get an A or B. If she didn't care for you maybe a C or D. If she really hated you, you couldn't get above an F. A friend of mine had a 4.0 before taking her class (unweighted as my school didn't do weighted) and she gave him an F on every paper he turned in. He and his parents went to the principal and asked for something to be done and all that happened was he got put into independent study. The teacher still works there to this day.

My uncle put my cousin into private school, and I asked him, "How can you afford that?" His reply was, "How can I not afford that?"

 

[EMPshockwave82]

Originally posted by: ducci
Unions are absurd in this day and age.

The Teacher's Union is just about as bad as they come (especially here in NJ).

Unfortunately they are a massive powerhouse - so much so that state legislation essentially revolves around their desires. You'd think it would be the other way around.

It's absurd that we still have to have unions in some situations. It shouldnt be necessary any more at all but there are some cases where protection from horrible authority figures is needed.

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: Thorny
A teachers starting salary is almost $20,000 LESS than someone with similar education, and people are saying that the teachers don't need unions. :disgust:

Try paying people what they're worth so that QUALIFIED people will want the job and you won't have a problem with ****** teachers. Currently people that have the skill to teach pick other fields due to the pay with education. This applies to many other fields as well, but is very obvious with both teachers and police around the country.

In my area the starting salary for teachers is $27K, what does your BS get you?

Not all BS degrees are equal. This is about right for Sociology, English, History, Geography majors. Most teachers are of such liberal art majors, that figure is about right if you take into account that they only really work 9 months of the year.

 

[zeruty]

Originally posted by: PClark99

Though most media outlets would have you believe the trouble with the educational system in this country is the teachers, it is more the fault of the administrators.

Incidentally... 3 or 4 of the worst teachers I encountered at my high school... have moved on to administration roles at that school and others within the district.

I knew plenty of horrible teachers there. And I could see right past the BS, even some teachers I never took a class from. There are some people who are damned good at pretending they know what they are talking about, but don't really.

It kind of gives merit to the old saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" and the corollary "Those who can't teach, administrate"

 

[Art Vandelay]

Why do people complain about teacher's pay?

They get 3 months off during summer, so it is kinda expected that they get paid less.

I also don't understand the "it's a hard job" argument. Well, my job is hard too. I work 8 am to 9 pm most week days and put in about 3-4 hours each weekend day.

Too bad I don't get 3 months off during summer.

 

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: Art Vandelay
Why do people complain about teacher's pay?

They get 3 months off during summer, so it is kinda expected that they get paid less.

I also don't understand the "it's a hard job" argument. Well, my job is hard too. I work 8 am to 9 pm most week days and put in about 3-4 hours each weekend day.

Too bad I don't get 3 months off during summer.

If you think a teachers job ends when the bell rings you're wrong. My wife has spends hours a week after class working both at home and school. Not to mention the student teaching she had to PAY the uni to complete without getting paid by the school she worked at. I had to pay 2500 tuition so that she could student teach, and the uni made her quit her night job to do it. I put in more hours than my wife for less compensation too, but that has nothing to do with her being underpaid. I didn't see anyone mention that its a hard job, it is however an important job that needs to be done correctly. Paying people more would create competition which would weed some of the less qualified people out. Right now the administration has a limited supply of applicants to choose from and have to take what they can get. Thats not a good way to operate.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Thorny

Originally posted by: Art Vandelay
Why do people complain about teacher's pay?

They get 3 months off during summer, so it is kinda expected that they get paid less.

I also don't understand the "it's a hard job" argument. Well, my job is hard too. I work 8 am to 9 pm most week days and put in about 3-4 hours each weekend day.

Too bad I don't get 3 months off during summer.

If you think a teachers job ends when the bell rings you're wrong. My wife has spends hours a week after class working both at home and school. Not to mention the student teaching she had to PAY the uni to complete without getting paid by the school she worked at. I had to pay 2500 tuition so that she could student teach, and the uni made her quit her night job to do it. I put in more hours than my wife for less compensation too, but that has nothing to do with her being underpaid. I didn't see anyone mention that its a hard job, it is however an important job that needs to be done correctly. Paying people more would create competition which would weed some of the less qualified people out. Right now the administration has a limited supply of applicants to choose from and have to take what they can get. Thats not a good way to operate.

I agree man. A lot of people can "turn it off" when they come home from work. Teachers can't. They have to bring that mess home.

My GF wakes up at 5:30AM in the morning. She gets ready and drives 40 minutes to her school. School starts at 7:30AM. She works non-stop until school is over at 1:40PM. She doesn't get lunch and while her kids are at lunch, she's in her room planning. She stays at school until 5:30 everyday grading papers, writing lesson plans, getting projects ready for the kids, attending meetings, etc. She gets home close to 6:30 and does MORE planning, grading, etc. until she goes to bed around 9:30 - 10:00PM. She normally takes about 30 mins for dinner when she gets home from work.

I guess the only good thing about the stress and no time for lunch during her first stint at teaching is that she's lost about 8 pounds:laugh:

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Thorny

Originally posted by: Art Vandelay
Why do people complain about teacher's pay?

They get 3 months off during summer, so it is kinda expected that they get paid less.

I also don't understand the "it's a hard job" argument. Well, my job is hard too. I work 8 am to 9 pm most week days and put in about 3-4 hours each weekend day.

Too bad I don't get 3 months off during summer.

If you think a teachers job ends when the bell rings you're wrong. My wife has spends hours a week after class working both at home and school. Not to mention the student teaching she had to PAY the uni to complete without getting paid by the school she worked at. I had to pay 2500 tuition so that she could student teach, and the uni made her quit her night job to do it. I put in more hours than my wife for less compensation too, but that has nothing to do with her being underpaid. I didn't see anyone mention that its a hard job, it is however an important job that needs to be done correctly. Paying people more would create competition which would weed some of the less qualified people out. Right now the administration has a limited supply of applicants to choose from and have to take what they can get. Thats not a good way to operate.

I agree man. A lot of people can "turn it off" when they come home from work. Teachers can't. They have to bring that mess home.

My GF wakes up at 5:30AM in the morning. She gets ready and drives 40 minutes to her school. School starts at 7:30AM. She works non-stop until school is over at 1:40PM. She doesn't get lunch and while her kids are at lunch, she's in her room planning. She stays at school until 5:30 everyday grading papers, writing lesson plans, getting projects ready for the kids, attending meetings, etc. She gets home close to 6:30 and does MORE planning, grading, etc. until she goes to bed around 9:30 - 10:00PM. She normally takes about 30 mins for dinner when she gets home from work.

I guess the only good thing about the stress and no time for lunch during her first stint at teaching is that she's lost about 8 pounds:laugh:

my mom typically went to bed around 2-3am, woke up at 5/530.. though did often doze off while grading papers

edited for grammatical correctness

 

[lytalbayre]

For the record... TEACHERS ARE WAY UNDERPAID. I agree with some of what Jobs said, but it is a double edged sword. Unions are there to protect, but they make it very difficult to fire teachers who are underperforming. I would like to see introductions into union contracts where teachers tenure is based on annual competency tests as well as annual/biannual reports on student teacher interaction. I do believe there should be workshops and bad teachers should be given a chance to improve, but there should be language limiting this "Grace" period. It should not be indefinite.

 

[NFS4]

http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,72754-0.html?tw=rss.index

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: NFS4
http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,72754-0.html?tw=rss.index

:thumbsup:

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: DougK62


Yeah, his kids no doubt go to a private school.

So how does that make what he said wrong?

It's a smug point of view from someone who isn't involved in the situation and has nothing to lose by making sweeping generalized statements.

Furthermore, I think it's awfully hypocritical of him seeing as he (his company) has benefited from tax breaks given to attract the company to a particular city. (NeXt and Richmond, CA)


I'm not saying that there are NO abuses within the Teacher's Union, per se, just that his memory seems to be rather selective as to what might be a problem within the system as a whole.

Furthermore, I'm not particularly impressed by the constant comparison of something to BUSINESS.

Business ethics and values (whatever that means) are not the only basis for evaluating anything in life except business.

Trying to run a war on a business model is what lead Mr. Rumsfeld to ignore initial troop requests and has contributed to the morass we are in overseas.

I am never impressed by armchair quarterbacks, no matter who they are.
If you aren't in the game, you're just a spectator. Knowing your role is the key.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: DougK62


Yeah, his kids no doubt go to a private school.

So how does that make what he said wrong?

It's a smug point of view from someone who isn't involved in the situation and has nothing to lose by making sweeping generalized statements.

Furthermore, I think it's awfully hypocritical of him seeing as he (his company) has benefited from tax breaks given to attract the company to a particular city. (NeXt and Richmond, CA)


I'm not saying that there are NO abuses within the Teacher's Union, per se, just that his memory seems to be rather selective as to what might be a problem within the system as a whole.

Furthermore, I'm not particularly impressed by the constant comparison of something to BUSINESS.

Business ethics and values (whatever that means) are not the only basis for evaluating anything in life except business.

Trying to run a war on a business model is what lead Mr. Rumsfeld to ignore initial troop requests and has contributed to the morass we are in overseas.

I am never impressed by armchair quarterbacks, no matter who they are.
If you aren't in the game, you're just a spectator. Knowing your role is the key.

Very true. It's tough to apply a business model to a school when the goals aren't necessarily the same. Businesses are around to make money; schools, on the other hand, aren't there to turn a profit, but instead to improve and educate individuals. Sometimes that requires investing disproportionate amounts of resources for what a businessperson might assume to be minimal returns.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: ducci
Unions are absurd in this day and age.

You nave no idea what you are talking about. There are still plenty of skilled laborers out there who would argue you until you are blue in the face. The Absurd unions are unions like teacher and transit workers. First teachers are spoiled fools who can some how trick more money each year to be dumped into their labs and as soon as they dont get what they want they strike, making real unions that strike for real reasons look bad, because the teachers are scarificing important time that could be spent actually teaching. Then you have other unions that are basically trained monkeys who push buttons.

Skilled and manual labor unions actually serve a purpose. They support student throughout their trainning and offer apprenticeships to get them on job sites getting experience. They also lobby to keep their wages decent. They get big group health insurance plans for their members that help keep costs down ( a bunch of people all on the same plan get the bulk discount). They insure that all sites are safe and conditions are up to standard and code with their own regulation (in case you were wondering the gov't standards for exposure to many hazards has not changed since the early 60's).

It is unfortunate that real unions have to be clumped in with these pathetic farces.

 

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: SirStev0

Originally posted by: ducci
Unions are absurd in this day and age.

You nave no idea what you are talking about. There are still plenty of skilled laborers out there who would argue you until you are blue in the face. The Absurd unions are unions like teacher and transit workers. First teachers are spoiled fools who can some how trick more money each year to be dumped into their labs and as soon as they dont get what they want they strike, making real unions that strike for real reasons look bad, because the teachers are scarificing important time that could be spent actually teaching. Then you have other unions that are basically trained monkeys who push buttons.

Skilled and manual labor unions actually serve a purpose. They support student throughout their trainning and offer apprenticeships to get them on job sites getting experience. They also lobby to keep their wages decent. They get big group health insurance plans for their members that help keep costs down ( a bunch of people all on the same plan get the bulk discount). They insure that all sites are safe and conditions are up to standard and code with their own regulation (in case you were wondering the gov't standards for exposure to many hazards has not changed since the early 60's).

It is unfortunate that real unions have to be clumped in with these pathetic farces.

It looks like you're the one who has no idea what they're talking about. Can you explain how teachers are spoiled when they're among the lowest compensated workers in thier education bracket? Can you explain how teachers have ANY administrative authority in thier classrooms that may dictate what equiptment they have? The only strikes I have seen teachers make have been for pay/compensation ONLY. Funny thing is that the administration would rather spend the money they have on new school buildings to replace the "unsuitable" ones they had that were only 30 yrs old.

Do you think that a skilled laborer somehow has more training and education that a teacher? Teachers have 4 years of training that the have to pay to attend, I believe skilled laborers get paid during thier apprenticeship. Teachers also have to pass certification after college that is not easy nor free. I can assure you that health care is neither better nor cheaper than that of a skilled tradesman. But for some reason you think that teachers don't need a union????

It's unfortunate that you have absolutely no idea what the teachers union does for it's members. There are plenty of unions that need to go, but the teachers union is not one of them. Go pick on the UAW for protecting unskilled labor if you wish, or maybe the guys in road construction that make $20 for putting cones on the shoulder. Those are the unions with problems.

 

[amdforever2]

Tenure should be replaced with pay raises I think.

Doing away with tenure keeps bad teachers from staying employed and pay raises will get more good teachers hired in the first place.

 

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: amdforever2
Tenure should be replaced with pay raises I think.

Doing away with tenure keeps bad teachers from staying employed and pay raises will get more good teachers hired in the first place.

Correct. Tenure has its good side, but there needs to be a way to eliminate bad teachers, tenured or not. There is very good reasoning behind tenure, as school districts must pay a teacher for the experiance they have. If a teacher with 15 yrs on the job is let go it is very hard for that person to find a job at a new school because the new school will always hire someone fresh out of college to save money. It should not be a shield for bad teachers to hide behind though.