Apple

[williamkusumo]

I have been drooling to buy an Apple machine for quite some time now (the Powerbook or iBook in particular) Not only their physical design is very nice, but also because I've used MAC for quite a while (in a computer lab) and I like it a lot better than PC (except for games, since they have less).
But why are they so expensive compared to similar spec on PC? I am not a hardware guy, but I have to assume that the performance you can get from 1GHz MAC must have been equivalent to 2Ghz PC, this is a shot in the dark, but I could run the same application sometimes faster in 1Ghz MAC than 2Ghz PC (and more stable most of the time). I was wondering if any of you expert in MAC can give me some insight on this. Is the high price tag due to the design and brand name? What's the rule when comparing PC and MAC performance?

Thanks,
William

 

[FishTankX]

The higher price tag is due to the fact that apple charges alot for their products.

The people who buy macs will shell out that much dough to get one. Bottom line.

Their parts are probably not that much more expensive to produce. But they aren't mass manufactured like PC's are (Apple has a very small market) so they don't have as much scale as P.C.'s.

 

[dudeman007]

Mac is different from other companies, because no other brands have access to their hardware. Intel, amd, they all sell their chips through sony, alienware, dell, etc. Not apple. You can only get products through them. Resellers dont change their prices because one, apple doesn't want them to, and two ...well they just cant! Apple doesn't have new deals every weak or new technology every month. It's the same stuff, but you can't think of it as "old". Apple is in their own world and pc is almost like the name for a group of guys trying to think of their own stuff. Two totally different market views.

 

[randumb]

Apple's hardware and software is completely proprietary, so they can charge as much as they want.

 

[thraxes]

Actually Apple notebooks compare quite well to their PC counterparts in terms of price. You really have to compare a major quality brand like Apple with anoher high end brand on the PC side. This would be IBM, Samsung and Toshiba.

Compared with those heavyweights Apple laptops come out quite well.

Desktop systems are another matter and are very expensive. The other side to all this tho is that an Apple holds it's resale value extremely well!

 

[SickBeast]

Certain Apple products are priced quite competetively. The iPod for example; I have yet to find anything in the market for significantly less considering what you get. I mean, the Dell MP3 player is alot cheaper for the same storage capacity, but it is larger and doesn't really compare to the iPod when you look at the big picture.

Beware of Apple's warranty service though; they will rape you on shipping fees unless you pay hella cash for their "AppleCare" package.

They have industry-leading industrial design and build quality in my experience. Some are willing to pay the price for this, as I did with my iPod.

 

[FishTankX]

Rio Karma.
iRiver IHP-1x0

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: randumb
Apple's hardware and software is completely proprietary, so they can charge as much as they want.

This is a very big lie that the x86 PC guys continue to spread.

RAM? SDRAM or DDR depending on model. The same stuff you put in your x86 PC.
Hard drive? IDE or SCSI, depending on options. The same ones you would put in your x86 PC.
NIC? I'm guessing it's one of the popular chipsets out there, but I can check if anyone HAS to know.

The processor is made my IBM (g3, g5) or Motorola (some g3s, g4), and are of an open design.

The Firmware is using Open Firmware standards I believe, but the northbridge is proprietary. Try finding proper documentation for nVidia products.

 

[Connoisseur]

Err the Creative Zen xtra is pretty similar in size and specs to the iPod... I believe I saw prices for the 20gb zen around 269-299? while the top of the line 20gig iPod is around $499? It is true that the iPod design is a lot nicer but hey you can accomplish the same tasks with the xtra and the interface isn't bad. You're paying for the name. That's about it.

 

[n0cmonkey]

The $499 iPod is 40GB.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: randumb
Apple's hardware and software is completely proprietary, so they can charge as much as they want.

This is a very big lie that the x86 PC guys continue to spread.

RAM? SDRAM or DDR depending on model. The same stuff you put in your x86 PC.
Hard drive? IDE or SCSI, depending on options. The same ones you would put in your x86 PC.
NIC? I'm guessing it's one of the popular chipsets out there, but I can check if anyone HAS to know.

The processor is made my IBM (g3, g5) or Motorola (some g3s, g4), and are of an open design.

The Firmware is using Open Firmware standards I believe, but the northbridge is proprietary. Try finding proper documentation for nVidia products.

Yeah, the RAM, drives, and (some) PCI cards are standard...however, the mobo, CPU, case/PSU, and video card (IE the expensive stuff) are proprietary. The video cards aren't as "proprietary" as the other stuff; basically they take a standard ATI card and put a different BIOS on it.

As for the OP: Please, please learn not to capitalize Mac.
Macs are pretty fast these days, however PC's still hold the speed crown, despite what some Mac zealots tell you. However, for some stuff like video editing, graphical design, etc, Apple is pretty firmly entrenched.

Stability is a lie, I've crashed both OS X and XP plenty of times, but usually they both are pretty stable. However, there's no magic ingredient Apple has that makes their machines somehow more stable (unless you count using quality components...but those of us who build our own use quality components anyway, it's the $300 OEM PC's you have to watch out for)

Just be sure you get a laptop, Mac has some nice laptops but their desktops are never worth it.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: FishTankX
Rio Karma.
iRiver IHP-1x0

They're both around the same price (the iRiver is more expensive IIRC) and are both inferior products IMO.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Connoisseur
Err the Creative Zen xtra is pretty similar in size and specs to the iPod... I believe I saw prices for the 20gb zen around 269-299? while the top of the line 20gig iPod is around $499? It is true that the iPod design is a lot nicer but hey you can accomplish the same tasks with the xtra and the interface isn't bad. You're paying for the name. That's about it.

Yes, the Zen is a very nice product, especially for the money it costs. You can't really compare it to the iPod though. Totally different form factor. One is pocket-sized, the other isn't (unless you're wearing cargo pants).

As you said, the design also doesn't match up, nor the interface. Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think anything has come close to touching the iPod as of yet. I guess that's why their marketshare is where it's at.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: jagec
Yeah, the RAM, drives, and (some) PCI cards are standard...however, the mobo, CPU, case/PSU, and video card (IE the expensive stuff) are proprietary. The video cards aren't as "proprietary" as the other stuff; basically they take a standard ATI card and put a different BIOS on it.

Like I said, try and get good documentation on nVidia's hardware. It isn't out there. Their NIC? It's a modified realtek. Does it work using the documentation for the standard RealTek cards? No.

Their video cards? Good luck. Due to patents, they refuse to release information. Which makes no sense really since patents would protect them from someone ripping them off.

Their chipsets are VERY closed.

Apple cases and PSUs are just a different form factor. All of which have been modified to work with ATX stuff just fine, and vice versa.

Apple uses standard processors. I already covered that. PPC is a fairly open standard. Look it up.

The video cards and some PCI cards require a little extra work for the OF. OF is much better than a BIOS ever could be. It's worth the extra work, and I wish x86 makers would jump on the bandwagon.

Anyone that complains about the proprietary nature of an Apple Macintosh computer; yet continues to use Microsoft, nVidia, or Intel products is a hypocrite.

 

[Connoisseur]

yeah like I said, Ipod definitely has the edge as far as aesthetics.... but is it seriously worth the ~$150 premium over a product with very similar specs? Coming from a poor student, I think not. If I COULD afford the iPod without putting a big dent in my wallet :sigh: I would, but I personally think the xtra is a hell of a deal for the price... err, not to sound like a zen fanatic (cause I don't OWN a portable player), but Circuit City is selling the 30gig zen xtra for $230 which is astounding considering the 15gig iPod retails for 299 and the 20 gig model retails for 399. IMO, I wouldn't mind the slightly larger size and inferior aesthetics.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: randumb
Apple's hardware and software is completely proprietary, so they can charge as much as they want.

This is a very big lie that the x86 PC guys continue to spread.

RAM? SDRAM or DDR depending on model. The same stuff you put in your x86 PC.
Hard drive? IDE or SCSI, depending on options. The same ones you would put in your x86 PC.
NIC? I'm guessing it's one of the popular chipsets out there, but I can check if anyone HAS to know.

The processor is made my IBM (g3, g5) or Motorola (some g3s, g4), and are of an open design.

The Firmware is using Open Firmware standards I believe, but the northbridge is proprietary. Try finding proper documentation for nVidia products.

Yeah, the RAM, drives, and (some) PCI cards are standard...however, the mobo, CPU, case/PSU, and video card (IE the expensive stuff) are proprietary. The video cards aren't as "proprietary" as the other stuff; basically they take a standard ATI card and put a different BIOS on it.

As for the OP: Please, please learn not to capitalize Mac.
Macs are pretty fast these days, however PC's still hold the speed crown, despite what some Mac zealots tell you. However, for some stuff like video editing, graphical design, etc, Apple is pretty firmly entrenched.

Stability is a lie, I've crashed both OS X and XP plenty of times, but usually they both are pretty stable. However, there's no magic ingredient Apple has that makes their machines somehow more stable (unless you count using quality components...but those of us who build our own use quality components anyway, it's the $300 OEM PC's you have to watch out for)

Just be sure you get a laptop, Mac has some nice laptops but their desktops are never worth it.

Apple isn't any more propriatory then the PC you sitting in front of right now.

The PowerPC spec is just as open as anything else out their. Anybody can make a PowerPC proccessor. Intel or AMD could if they realy wanted to.

Just because you can buy a Nvidia board in a store, but Apple only sells theirs only in pre-built computers.

In fact right now I can think of a half dozen or so individual operating systems right now that I can use in the place of OS X on Apple's own hardware.

Hell there are places I can go that actually have Linux Pre-installed on Mac hardware.

USB/Firewire/Ram/Vga graphics/DVI out/SCSI/IDE/PCI-X/PCI/Harddrives/Burners etc etc everything is to the same specs that PC's use.

So exactly what is so propriatory about Apple motherboard vs Nvidia motherboard? Nvidia keeps their hardware a bigger secret then Apple ever did.

And keep in mind that the I386 isn't the only platform in existance.

You have PowerPC, Power, Mips, Risc, S/390, blah blah blah..

And I bet you use WINDOWS operating system!

And you complain about Apple being PROPRIATORY? You have no clue what they hell your talking about.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: drag

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: randumb
Apple's hardware and software is completely proprietary, so they can charge as much as they want.

This is a very big lie that the x86 PC guys continue to spread.

RAM? SDRAM or DDR depending on model. The same stuff you put in your x86 PC.
Hard drive? IDE or SCSI, depending on options. The same ones you would put in your x86 PC.
NIC? I'm guessing it's one of the popular chipsets out there, but I can check if anyone HAS to know.

The processor is made my IBM (g3, g5) or Motorola (some g3s, g4), and are of an open design.

The Firmware is using Open Firmware standards I believe, but the northbridge is proprietary. Try finding proper documentation for nVidia products.

Yeah, the RAM, drives, and (some) PCI cards are standard...however, the mobo, CPU, case/PSU, and video card (IE the expensive stuff) are proprietary. The video cards aren't as "proprietary" as the other stuff; basically they take a standard ATI card and put a different BIOS on it.

As for the OP: Please, please learn not to capitalize Mac.
Macs are pretty fast these days, however PC's still hold the speed crown, despite what some Mac zealots tell you. However, for some stuff like video editing, graphical design, etc, Apple is pretty firmly entrenched.

Stability is a lie, I've crashed both OS X and XP plenty of times, but usually they both are pretty stable. However, there's no magic ingredient Apple has that makes their machines somehow more stable (unless you count using quality components...but those of us who build our own use quality components anyway, it's the $300 OEM PC's you have to watch out for)

Just be sure you get a laptop, Mac has some nice laptops but their desktops are never worth it.

Apple isn't any more propriatory then the PC you sitting in front of right now.

The PowerPC spec is just as open as anything else out their. Anybody can make a PowerPC proccessor. Intel or AMD could if they realy wanted to.

Just because you can buy a Nvidia board in a store, but Apple only sells theirs only in pre-built computers.

In fact right now I can think of a half dozen or so individual operating systems right now that I can use in the place of OS X on Apple's own hardware.

Hell there are places I can go that actually have Linux Pre-installed on Mac hardware.

USB/Firewire/Ram/Vga graphics/DVI out/SCSI/IDE/PCI-X/PCI/Harddrives/Burners etc etc everything is to the same specs that PC's use.

So exactly what is so propriatory about Apple motherboard vs Nvidia motherboard? Nvidia keeps their hardware a bigger secret then Apple ever did.

And keep in mind that the I386 isn't the only platform in existance.

You have PowerPC, Power, Mips, Risc, S/390, blah blah blah..

And I bet you use WINDOWS operating system!

And you complain about Apple being PROPRIATORY? You have no clue what they hell your talking about.

But I can use my Windows operation system on a machine that I built myself. Same goes for *nix or FreeBSD. If I could buy OSX and dual-boot it with Windows and Linux, I'd do it tomorrow.

I've never really been able to figure out Apple pricing. It seems like such a shoddy business practice. They need a sub-$750 entry-level box to convince people to upgrade to a +$2,000 G4. I've always wanted to buy a Mac, but I'm leary of spending +1K on a system that I have no experience with.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: loki8481

But I can use my Windows operation system on a machine that I built myself. Same goes for *nix or FreeBSD. If I could buy OSX and dual-boot it with Windows and Linux, I'd do it tomorrow.

Look at PearPC, then go to CompUSA and pick up a copy of OS X.

And, there have been people out there that built their own Mac. Just in case you didn't know.

I've never really been able to figure out Apple pricing. It seems like such a shoddy business practice. They need a sub-$750 entry-level box to convince people to upgrade to a +$2,000 G4. I've always wanted to buy a Mac, but I'm leary of spending +1K on a system that I have no experience with.

*yawn* You aren't getting just a box. Stop looking at it as a Wintel consumer.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and none of that explains how anyone can complain about the supposed proprietary nature of Apple Macintosh systems and use Windows on an nVidia board.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: loki8481

But I can use my Windows operation system on a machine that I built myself. Same goes for *nix or FreeBSD. If I could buy OSX and dual-boot it with Windows and Linux, I'd do it tomorrow.

Look at PearPC, then go to CompUSA and pick up a copy of OS X.

And, there have been people out there that built their own Mac. Just in case you didn't know.

neat I didn't know that.

 

[Wahsapa]

dual 2ghz ibm ppc970s(g5's) on a 1ghz fsb for 3 grand? i dont think thats half bad. hopefully for the work youll be doing on them it would be worth the cost.

how much would two 940/939 cpus cost? and the board to run them...?

also 64bit os? not xp... mac os 10.3 on the other hand, not to mention 10.4 coming out soon, wheres 64 bit windows?

9800pro? what kind of games would you be playing on a mac? =\

the new g5 towers are something else... worth the price? maybe, its a machine ment to be worked. some people want them some people dont.

the powerbooks are sweet laptops for the price.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: Wahsapa
dual 2ghz ibm ppc970s(g5's) on a 1ghz fsb for 3 grand? i dont think thats half bad. hopefully for the work youll be doing on them it would be worth the cost.

how much would two 940/939 cpus cost? and the board to run them...?

While I agree with you, the dual Opterons (assuming around 1.6-2.2ghz) will spank the dual Power970 proccessors and probably still be cheaper, unless you get the most expensive stuff.

also 64bit os? not xp... mac os 10.3 on the other hand, not to mention 10.4 coming out soon, wheres 64 bit windows?

Well.. 10.3 isn't realy 64bits, is it? I could be wrong, but I don't think it is.

9800pro? what kind of games would you be playing on a mac? =\

the new g5 towers are something else... worth the price? maybe, its a machine ment to be worked. some people want them some people dont.

the powerbooks are sweet laptops for the price.

Playing games? I have some games. One games is "Lets make electronic Art". I play that game(not that I am great at it, but it's fun), or about "Lets learn how stuff works", or "Lets play around with programming.", or "Lets communicate with people that live thousands of miles away from me" etc etc.

Games aren't everything. Macs (and linux actually) have plenty enough games that can occupy my time.

Lets face it, computers if used unwisely are a huge time waster and have very little actual benifit to people, except that they don't have commercials as bad as you see on TV. But utilized correctly they can be a huge boon to people. Electronic games are just one aspect of computers that make them worthwhile.

Oh, and the Ibooks and Powerbooks rock for their price. This is a product that Apple is actually doing well on. In almost every concivable manner they are superior to similarly priced laptops, EXCEPT for CPU speed. Battery life, construction quality (not perfect by any means, but better then most dell or gateway stuff), weight, OS, included software, USB2.0 + Firewire 400 + Firewire 800 + DVD burners/combo drives etc etc are better then most other laptops.

As far as the PowerG5's go. They are freaking nice computers. Not the greatest, or the best priced, but they are nice.

 

[Eug]

If I could buy OSX and dual-boot it with Windows and Linux, I'd do it tomorrow.

That would be triple boot. Anyways, with a Mac, you can dual boot Linux and OS X, and you can run Windows on Virtual PC.

As for competitiveness, I think the Mac laptops are the best value overall bar none. The PowerBooks are not the absolute fastest, but the design is the best, and the prices are very competitive against comparable machines. Not that there are many truly comparable machines out there. Find me a single non-Mac laptop that has DVI-I and powered Firewire. Personally, I think those are dealmaker/breaker features for a high end laptop. No DVI-I and no powered Firewire --> no sale. And the iBook 1.07 GHz is a very well-priced machine as well.

The G5 Power Macs are gorgeous but expensive. The iMacs are nice, but far too expensive, however.

As for speed, it really depends. In some apps, a Windows PC destroys a Mac. In other apps a Mac might be faster. It really depends on what you want to run.