This debate began over at MDN, and started with the statement "Apple leads, Wintel follows, as usual..." concerning the recent unveiling of Aopen's new Mac Mini lookalike. Quite a good read for those interested.
"As usual, Apple leads, Wintel follows. For example:-
USB as standard, 802.11g, widescreens in laptops, FireWire, Bluetooth that actually works, 32/64-bit hybrid processors and now the mini desktop.
Apple introduces new ways for people to use technology. Quoting all those numbers just proves you've missed the point."
USB is a PC innovation. What's next? Dual layer DVD recorders "as standard"(despite PC availability first)? Apple developed firewire, but firewire failed to penetrate the mainstream.....why? USB 2.0
Widescreen isn't something technological. It's an inevitability. Really grasping at straws to claim "Apple leads, Wintel follows" here. Like claiming Mac first to drop the floppy drive. How about Apple following, Wintel leading in terms of water-cooling? Funny when mac zealots try to grasp for irrelevant "achievements", and still find a way to be selective in the process.
And you and I both know Apple didn't lead with the 64-bit processor. The Opteron was on the market first. Apple's advertising campaign concerning the G5 was BANNED in several countries because of its misleading 64-bit and speed claims.
"Well check out the supercomputing Top500 list (http://www.top500.org) and see how many PowerPC based computers (including PowerPC G5 based Xserves) aare in the list (and growing) ... next list due in late June (during 21st-24th).
I guess supercomputing is too specialised for you to consider ... but the number of G5 based systems used in computationally intensive science and engineering (e.g. the biosciences) is growing quickly. In fact supercomputing (and GRID based) initiatives are likely to become more pervasive and Apple's turnkey solutions are making increasing impacts in this area."
I'd like you to look over that list, and provide a percentage of G5/Xserve clusters instead of custom IBM processors that will never see the light of day inside a Mac. It's a typical move by mac fanatics...real world applications show the G5 trounched by PC's, and as a knee-jerk reaction they run to the 500 list to cower behind powerpc processors not even designed for general desktop use. The list changes all the time, because in case you didnt figure it out, a supercomputer cluster is as powerful as the number of chains its based upon....a good majority of this list are composed of older Xeon or PowerPC chains.
As for Apple itself, don't be quick to assume Xserves will continue to grow in any field this year, considering dual core server offerings are available from both AMD and Intel TODAY. Twice the power and half the space and priced quite competitively. Apple, at best, will see a dual core 970 in their G5's by January 2006. IBM seems content to supply it's console partners and its own server market first before Apple.
Lastly, you didnt even address my original point. What percentage of PowerPC clusters are even running OSX? Most prefer Linux. Your 500 reference does in fact, support my argument....OSX is scoffed in favor of a true 64-bit operating environment.
"Actually it was just an oddity on a PC, it was the introduction of the iMac that made it popular and THEN PC makers jumped on the bandwagon, check your history. Yeah Firewire failed in the Mainstream - wait I don't see too many USB 2.0 digital Camcorders do you? Nuff said"
Any way you look at it, it's nothing more than a failed attempt of typical mac zealots to mask USB's true origins as if it were some sort of Apple feat....the same that's now being said concerning dual layer Superdrives by clueless MDN readers. As far as firewire is concerned, the reason why firewire is dominated by digital camcorders (and nothing else) really had little to do with the technology itself, as explained fully in this article:
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1104
"Apple was still first to do it first to take the chance [widescreen laptops], how do you know what's inevitable? are you psychic?"
About as psychic as foreseeing HDTV's would debut in widescreen rather than standard format. Funny, Apple releases a widescreen laptop to very little fanfare....PC makers release widescreen laptops at a much later date to a matured market (mobile DVD recorders, HD format, etc...), and they are accused of "stealing". I guess its ok for Apple to "steal" USB fame but somehow impossible for PC makers to improve in the same manner? I guess it must be your way to make up for Apple's serious current lag in the laptop market, being still stuck with slow G4 chips after all.
"Wintel leading in water cooling? That sounds like straw grasping at your end, not too many other ways to cool processors other than air and water, but I guess thats falls under "inevitability" huh?""
That right there just proves your ignorance. Maybe you didn't understand my point. PC manufacturers have been selling water cooled cases for some time now, and smaller water cooling kits for CPU and GPU's. It's actually quite a thriving industry for overclockers and enthusiasts. Apple, realizing that it hit a bump with the G5, decides to "follow Wintel" and implement a water-cooling solution so they can overclock their speed-stuck CPU's and market a new line.
Now let me guess....Apple is first to make "water cooling standard"? It's good to have a multitude of manufacturers for PC, as it furthers innovation and design....yet it allows clueless mac zealots to make outlandish claims simply because Apple is a single company with no competitor.
"Actually just Britain and I believe the claim was the first Desktop personal computer that was 64 bit, the Opteron is a server, no?"
The ban was held because the "claims" by Apple inferred the server market as well. And if you want to get petty, AMD had sent Athlon 64's to reviewers (who were held under NDA) weeks before Apple launched the G5. So who really had the "first" 64-bit desktop processor?
Whether or not on purpose, you fail to acknowledge Apple's deliberate misleading claims for the SOLE purpose of marketing. They did their own benchmarks with fuzzy numbers, refused to allow reviewers early access to G5 units (which AMD allowed, but whose NDA's expired after Apple's launch), just for the sole purpose of marketing.....and you've got to be a complete biased moron to think Apple really did bring the "first 64-bit desktop" processor.
"Meanness on all sides. No-one knows which way things will go or what changes will come Apples way in the server market so I will not presume they will standstill while other move ahead, you shouldn't either.
We shall see what Apple does in the meantime. It must be really tough times, neither Apple nor IBM have announced anything definite for the immediate future, and you have clueless MDN readers proclaiming the death of Wintel with "Cell Macs".
"You can have that point because I would not know how many - do you (please provide info sources please)"
Look at the list in HTML format, and look for how many of these clusters are actually running OSX as the operating system.
"damn, sammy you got p0w3d by cpearson. Glad I got to see that before I started my long winded reply. Well done
"
"P0w3d"? Sure sound like one of the countless mindless Wintel sheep in Microsoft's pen you folks like to bash. Of course, being a mindless sheep in Apple's pen does distort reality a bit.
"If it hadn't been for the iMac, USB would like have disappeared under a shower of 25-pin parallel ports and PS/2 connectors, but now it's widespread."
Highly unlikely....the advantages of USB became more apparent as plug'n play devices (especially external storage devices) evolved, not because of iMac.
"and can the Opteron run 32-bit and 64-bit drivers simultaneously and switch between the two on the fly? No."
That's not a hardware issue. XP 64 can most certainly execute simultaneous 32-bit and 64-bit instructions, but only because of a built in 32-bit emulation layer.
"We all know Apple hardware falls behind in a lot of areas, but let's face it, what's the point in having a 256MB superfast Graphics card if the only use you get out of it is playing Doom 3?"
I didn't realize a $1000 Quaddro professional graphics board was only to play Doom 3.
"Windows? Truly 64 bit? When did Windows ever make it passed 16 bit? Or did it?"
That must be a statement of ignorance. You do realize, Tiger is a "pseudo 64-bit" operating system? Windows XP 64, on the other hand, is a far more 64-bit integrated operating system....that is a fact.
....Tiger also seems rushed in the sense that it's not a drastic shift to 64-bit computing; Tiger adds the ability for individual processes to have access to more than 4GB of memory. As can be expected, any process using the 64-bit memory space can only talk to 64-bit libraries, which at present, doesn't include any UI libraries. The end result is that you can have a 64-bit process, but it has to talk to a 32-bit UI process. There are even more limitations beyond this, but the basic impression that I get from Tiger is that Apple is taking a much more transitional approach to the move to a full 64-bit OS than Microsoft. In fact, if it weren't for AMD, I wouldn't be too surprised if Microsoft's move to 64-bit would be much more similar to Apple's. The reality of the situation is that for the majority of users, 64-bit memory addressability isn't going to be a necessity for another few years still. Instead of focusing a lot of attention on 64-bit today, Apple appears to be making a transition towards the goal of making the Mac OS a full 64-bit OS, but with Tiger, we are far from there yet. Next week, you will be able to read my impressions of Windows XP x64 Edition, and from my experience with that, desktop users aren't missing anything from Tiger, being somewhat limited in its "64-bitness". ....."
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2404&p=3
"I guess the Mad as Hell series that's going on right now with a detected professional PC user moving to Mac is just a fluke in your eyes."
http://securityawareness.blogspot.com/2...05/mad-as-hell-iii-month-1-review.html
Now you're truly struggling. Ok, I can play that game too....
How about this user experiencing constant crashing with Filemaker so often, that he needed to revert to OS9?
http://www.kublacon.com/khannections/KN_issue3/KN_3_news.html
How about a list of security exploits?
http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/42964.html
http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/43030.html
http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/05/12/tiger.qt.exploit/
http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.aspx?i=24208
"PC World names Apple's Mac OS X Tiger 'Best Operating System"
Ohhhooo that's gotta hurt Sammy!
Here's the total:
Apple Computer, Inc. scored in PC World's 2005 World Class Award Winners in the following categories:
Operating System: Apple Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger)
Media Player: Apple iTunes
Small PC: Apple Mac mini
Database: FileMaker Pro 7
Music Downloads: Apple iTunes Music Store
Large Capacity MP3 Player: Apple iPod photo
But I suppose you'll say PC World is just another rag magazine you wouldn't line your birdcage with Huh?"
Who really cares? What exactly, was the purpose of that post? Every time Apple wins any type of award, it must be some kind of breaththrough? Really pathetic.
LOL, since you liked that PC World article so much....wonder what you think of this PC world article?
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112749,pg,8,00.asp
Please Pearson, it's obvious you're pretty desperate. Get back to my original points above (before you went off on a zealous tangent) if you want to continue.
"As usual, Apple leads, Wintel follows. For example:-
USB as standard, 802.11g, widescreens in laptops, FireWire, Bluetooth that actually works, 32/64-bit hybrid processors and now the mini desktop.
Apple introduces new ways for people to use technology. Quoting all those numbers just proves you've missed the point."
USB is a PC innovation. What's next? Dual layer DVD recorders "as standard"(despite PC availability first)? Apple developed firewire, but firewire failed to penetrate the mainstream.....why? USB 2.0
Widescreen isn't something technological. It's an inevitability. Really grasping at straws to claim "Apple leads, Wintel follows" here. Like claiming Mac first to drop the floppy drive. How about Apple following, Wintel leading in terms of water-cooling? Funny when mac zealots try to grasp for irrelevant "achievements", and still find a way to be selective in the process.
And you and I both know Apple didn't lead with the 64-bit processor. The Opteron was on the market first. Apple's advertising campaign concerning the G5 was BANNED in several countries because of its misleading 64-bit and speed claims.
"Well check out the supercomputing Top500 list (http://www.top500.org) and see how many PowerPC based computers (including PowerPC G5 based Xserves) aare in the list (and growing) ... next list due in late June (during 21st-24th).
I guess supercomputing is too specialised for you to consider ... but the number of G5 based systems used in computationally intensive science and engineering (e.g. the biosciences) is growing quickly. In fact supercomputing (and GRID based) initiatives are likely to become more pervasive and Apple's turnkey solutions are making increasing impacts in this area."
I'd like you to look over that list, and provide a percentage of G5/Xserve clusters instead of custom IBM processors that will never see the light of day inside a Mac. It's a typical move by mac fanatics...real world applications show the G5 trounched by PC's, and as a knee-jerk reaction they run to the 500 list to cower behind powerpc processors not even designed for general desktop use. The list changes all the time, because in case you didnt figure it out, a supercomputer cluster is as powerful as the number of chains its based upon....a good majority of this list are composed of older Xeon or PowerPC chains.
As for Apple itself, don't be quick to assume Xserves will continue to grow in any field this year, considering dual core server offerings are available from both AMD and Intel TODAY. Twice the power and half the space and priced quite competitively. Apple, at best, will see a dual core 970 in their G5's by January 2006. IBM seems content to supply it's console partners and its own server market first before Apple.
Lastly, you didnt even address my original point. What percentage of PowerPC clusters are even running OSX? Most prefer Linux. Your 500 reference does in fact, support my argument....OSX is scoffed in favor of a true 64-bit operating environment.
"Actually it was just an oddity on a PC, it was the introduction of the iMac that made it popular and THEN PC makers jumped on the bandwagon, check your history. Yeah Firewire failed in the Mainstream - wait I don't see too many USB 2.0 digital Camcorders do you? Nuff said"
Any way you look at it, it's nothing more than a failed attempt of typical mac zealots to mask USB's true origins as if it were some sort of Apple feat....the same that's now being said concerning dual layer Superdrives by clueless MDN readers. As far as firewire is concerned, the reason why firewire is dominated by digital camcorders (and nothing else) really had little to do with the technology itself, as explained fully in this article:
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1104
"Apple was still first to do it first to take the chance [widescreen laptops], how do you know what's inevitable? are you psychic?"
About as psychic as foreseeing HDTV's would debut in widescreen rather than standard format. Funny, Apple releases a widescreen laptop to very little fanfare....PC makers release widescreen laptops at a much later date to a matured market (mobile DVD recorders, HD format, etc...), and they are accused of "stealing". I guess its ok for Apple to "steal" USB fame but somehow impossible for PC makers to improve in the same manner? I guess it must be your way to make up for Apple's serious current lag in the laptop market, being still stuck with slow G4 chips after all.
"Wintel leading in water cooling? That sounds like straw grasping at your end, not too many other ways to cool processors other than air and water, but I guess thats falls under "inevitability" huh?""
That right there just proves your ignorance. Maybe you didn't understand my point. PC manufacturers have been selling water cooled cases for some time now, and smaller water cooling kits for CPU and GPU's. It's actually quite a thriving industry for overclockers and enthusiasts. Apple, realizing that it hit a bump with the G5, decides to "follow Wintel" and implement a water-cooling solution so they can overclock their speed-stuck CPU's and market a new line.
Now let me guess....Apple is first to make "water cooling standard"? It's good to have a multitude of manufacturers for PC, as it furthers innovation and design....yet it allows clueless mac zealots to make outlandish claims simply because Apple is a single company with no competitor.
"Actually just Britain and I believe the claim was the first Desktop personal computer that was 64 bit, the Opteron is a server, no?"
The ban was held because the "claims" by Apple inferred the server market as well. And if you want to get petty, AMD had sent Athlon 64's to reviewers (who were held under NDA) weeks before Apple launched the G5. So who really had the "first" 64-bit desktop processor?
Whether or not on purpose, you fail to acknowledge Apple's deliberate misleading claims for the SOLE purpose of marketing. They did their own benchmarks with fuzzy numbers, refused to allow reviewers early access to G5 units (which AMD allowed, but whose NDA's expired after Apple's launch), just for the sole purpose of marketing.....and you've got to be a complete biased moron to think Apple really did bring the "first 64-bit desktop" processor.
"Meanness on all sides. No-one knows which way things will go or what changes will come Apples way in the server market so I will not presume they will standstill while other move ahead, you shouldn't either.
We shall see what Apple does in the meantime. It must be really tough times, neither Apple nor IBM have announced anything definite for the immediate future, and you have clueless MDN readers proclaiming the death of Wintel with "Cell Macs".
"You can have that point because I would not know how many - do you (please provide info sources please)"
Look at the list in HTML format, and look for how many of these clusters are actually running OSX as the operating system.
"damn, sammy you got p0w3d by cpearson. Glad I got to see that before I started my long winded reply. Well done
"
"P0w3d"? Sure sound like one of the countless mindless Wintel sheep in Microsoft's pen you folks like to bash. Of course, being a mindless sheep in Apple's pen does distort reality a bit.
"If it hadn't been for the iMac, USB would like have disappeared under a shower of 25-pin parallel ports and PS/2 connectors, but now it's widespread."
Highly unlikely....the advantages of USB became more apparent as plug'n play devices (especially external storage devices) evolved, not because of iMac.
"and can the Opteron run 32-bit and 64-bit drivers simultaneously and switch between the two on the fly? No."
That's not a hardware issue. XP 64 can most certainly execute simultaneous 32-bit and 64-bit instructions, but only because of a built in 32-bit emulation layer.
"We all know Apple hardware falls behind in a lot of areas, but let's face it, what's the point in having a 256MB superfast Graphics card if the only use you get out of it is playing Doom 3?"
I didn't realize a $1000 Quaddro professional graphics board was only to play Doom 3.
"Windows? Truly 64 bit? When did Windows ever make it passed 16 bit? Or did it?"
That must be a statement of ignorance. You do realize, Tiger is a "pseudo 64-bit" operating system? Windows XP 64, on the other hand, is a far more 64-bit integrated operating system....that is a fact.
....Tiger also seems rushed in the sense that it's not a drastic shift to 64-bit computing; Tiger adds the ability for individual processes to have access to more than 4GB of memory. As can be expected, any process using the 64-bit memory space can only talk to 64-bit libraries, which at present, doesn't include any UI libraries. The end result is that you can have a 64-bit process, but it has to talk to a 32-bit UI process. There are even more limitations beyond this, but the basic impression that I get from Tiger is that Apple is taking a much more transitional approach to the move to a full 64-bit OS than Microsoft. In fact, if it weren't for AMD, I wouldn't be too surprised if Microsoft's move to 64-bit would be much more similar to Apple's. The reality of the situation is that for the majority of users, 64-bit memory addressability isn't going to be a necessity for another few years still. Instead of focusing a lot of attention on 64-bit today, Apple appears to be making a transition towards the goal of making the Mac OS a full 64-bit OS, but with Tiger, we are far from there yet. Next week, you will be able to read my impressions of Windows XP x64 Edition, and from my experience with that, desktop users aren't missing anything from Tiger, being somewhat limited in its "64-bitness". ....."
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2404&p=3
"I guess the Mad as Hell series that's going on right now with a detected professional PC user moving to Mac is just a fluke in your eyes."
http://securityawareness.blogspot.com/2...05/mad-as-hell-iii-month-1-review.html
Now you're truly struggling. Ok, I can play that game too....
How about this user experiencing constant crashing with Filemaker so often, that he needed to revert to OS9?
http://www.kublacon.com/khannections/KN_issue3/KN_3_news.html
How about a list of security exploits?
http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/42964.html
http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/43030.html
http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/05/12/tiger.qt.exploit/
http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.aspx?i=24208
"PC World names Apple's Mac OS X Tiger 'Best Operating System"
Ohhhooo that's gotta hurt Sammy!
Here's the total:
Apple Computer, Inc. scored in PC World's 2005 World Class Award Winners in the following categories:
Operating System: Apple Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger)
Media Player: Apple iTunes
Small PC: Apple Mac mini
Database: FileMaker Pro 7
Music Downloads: Apple iTunes Music Store
Large Capacity MP3 Player: Apple iPod photo
But I suppose you'll say PC World is just another rag magazine you wouldn't line your birdcage with Huh?"
Who really cares? What exactly, was the purpose of that post? Every time Apple wins any type of award, it must be some kind of breaththrough? Really pathetic.
LOL, since you liked that PC World article so much....wonder what you think of this PC world article?
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112749,pg,8,00.asp
Please Pearson, it's obvious you're pretty desperate. Get back to my original points above (before you went off on a zealous tangent) if you want to continue.
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