Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,825
1,396
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M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:

Screen-Shot-2021-10-18-at-1.20.47-PM.jpg

M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:


M1 Ultra discussion here:


M2 discussion here:


Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:


M4 Family discussion here:

 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,113
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If it is an M4 I would expect big gains. The only way it really makes sense for them to have M4 out only 7 months after M3 is if it were a new design being done by a different team that wasn't working on M3.

Another alternative is that we're getting an M3X or something that's basically an M3, but perhaps tailored to the iPad, and perhaps something else that Apple might want to put it in. Perhaps something designed for an even lower power target, etc.
 

mikegg

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,844
467
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If it is an M4 I would expect big gains. The only way it really makes sense for them to have M4 out only 7 months after M3 is if it were a new design being done by a different team that wasn't working on M3.
I'm almost certain that Apple has some kind of leapfrogging teams system. There is no way that the same team designed all the M SoC.
 

poke01

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2022
2,205
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I just thought of this, Apples P core is named Everest. Everest is the highest mountain in the mountain in the world or in other words it’s the highest peak. So Apples P core reached its peak.

This is an outlandish theory but what if Apple finally moves on from the Firestorm era IPC to a new completely new design in their next family of chips.

Or they started their P cores after mountains now.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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I'm almost certain that Apple has some kind of leapfrogging teams system. There is no way that the same team designed all the M SoC.
Well yeah for the whole SoC.

The CPU big core is what’s interesting. And not looking great long term, though it’s honestly impressive how it’s still ahead and they’re basically just riding our node stuff with frequency (which isn’t been fully iso-power with the A17/M3, it eats more and I think they pushed it too much) besides the extra cache and phydes changes.

In 3 years I wonder where Qualcomm and Arm will be by comparison
 

Nothingness

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2013
3,089
2,083
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I just thought of this, Apples P core is named Everest. Everest is the highest mountain in the mountain in the world or in other words it’s the highest peak. So Apples P core reached its peak.

This is an outlandish theory but what if Apple finally moves on from the Firestorm era IPC to a new completely new design in their next family of chips.

Or they started their P cores after mountains now.
They can keep climbing by using solar system planets.
 
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Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
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I'm almost certain that Apple has some kind of leapfrogging teams system. There is no way that the same team designed all the M SoC.

I think that's an outmoded way of looking at things. Back when chip architects were designing a "CPU", having two or three teams leapfrogging each other and when one finishes the 2024 design starting on 2026 or 2027 made sense. That's no longer true today when a chip design includes two different CPU core types, a GPU, an NPU, an ISP, and all the "uncore" like SLC/LPDDR5, USB and so forth.

I would guess they are organized along those lines, so perhaps you have one team doing CPU (or maybe even one doing P core and one doing E core) and another perhaps doing GPU/NPU/ISP, and another doing the uncore/everything else. There would be a team doing the overall A SoC and M SoC designs but they're working at a higher level integrating everything into a whole, and because they're working at a higher level they could work on multiple generations at once without leapfrogging required.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
989
680
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I think that's an outmoded way of looking at things. Back when chip architects were designing a "CPU", having two or three teams leapfrogging each other and when one finishes the 2024 design starting on 2026 or 2027 made sense. That's no longer true today when a chip design includes two different CPU core types, a GPU, an NPU, an ISP, and all the "uncore" like SLC/LPDDR5, USB and so forth.

I would guess they are organized along those lines, so perhaps you have one team doing CPU (or maybe even one doing P core and one doing E core) and another perhaps doing GPU/NPU/ISP, and another doing the uncore/everything else. There would be a team doing the overall A SoC and M SoC designs but they're working at a higher level integrating everything into a whole, and because they're working at a higher level they could work on multiple generations at once without leapfrogging required.
Exactly.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,113
6,768
136
If we do see an M4 that's got an actual new core as opposed to just reusing the same core while updating the model number (similar to how older generations of GPUs would just release the same cards with higher numbers) it would almost indicate that Apple has to have some leap frog teams arrangement.

For example around the time their first M-series chip was coming out, a separate team started working on a fresh design for what would eventually be the M4. Meanwhile the plan was for the M2 and M3 to be incremental improvements and tweaks to the existing design that would utilize the same cores that were going into the yearly iPhone models.

Otherwise it just doesn't make a lot of sense for an M4 that represents an actual new chip with new cores, etc. to show up this early. No one goes out of their way to plan on an 7/8-month cadence for their chip releases and even a 12-month cadence isn't going to be 4+ months ahead of schedule. A team that started work several years ago with a target of mid-to-late-2024, however, may have something to ready to go a bit sooner than an intended fall launch date.
 

mikegg

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,844
467
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I think that's an outmoded way of looking at things. Back when chip architects were designing a "CPU", having two or three teams leapfrogging each other and when one finishes the 2024 design starting on 2026 or 2027 made sense. That's no longer true today when a chip design includes two different CPU core types, a GPU, an NPU, an ISP, and all the "uncore" like SLC/LPDDR5, USB and so forth.

I would guess they are organized along those lines, so perhaps you have one team doing CPU (or maybe even one doing P core and one doing E core) and another perhaps doing GPU/NPU/ISP, and another doing the uncore/everything else. There would be a team doing the overall A SoC and M SoC designs but they're working at a higher level integrating everything into a whole, and because they're working at a higher level they could work on multiple generations at once without leapfrogging required.
One team cannot be designing 2-3 generations of CPU at the same time. Hence, I said “some kind of system”.

An Apple exec said they plan chips about 4 years in advance. Some team has to be working on the chip set to release in 2028 right now.
 
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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,825
1,396
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This time a more reputable analysis and supply chain Pu is saying Apple is building M2 Ultrs and later M4 (M4 Ultra probably) servers for AI
Interesting:

1. M2 Ultra
2. Servers - For use themselves, or for retail/institutional sale?
3. "supply chain Pu" :D
 
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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,825
1,396
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I think the AI Server is for themselves, instead of using other companies CPUs/GPUs why not use your own.
I had read that Apple uses Linux for its iCloud backend.

And when Steve Jobs was running Pixar, the render farms were also Linux (on Xeons). I'm not sure about now, but I'm thinking it is still Linux.
 

poke01

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2022
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I had read that Apple uses Linux for its iCloud backend.

And when Steve Jobs was running Pixar, the render farms were also Linux. I'm not sure about now, but I'm thinking it is still Linux.
Linux I think so too. It’s simple and easy to configure. It’s open source, so no fees.
 

oak8292

Member
Sep 14, 2016
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That would be odd. x86 servers are likely cheaper and they have at least 8 datacenter locations globally and have invested some $XXB in them.
The margins for X86 CPUs and GPUs are fairly clear with both AMD and Nvidia using wafers from TSMC and reporting on gross margins. Intel’s transistor costs have just be broken out into a foundry line item to clarify their costs. Apple is buying enough wafers to get preferred status either at TSMC or Intel. Apple has CPU, GPU and NPU designs with their own software stack. They can license ARM cores for servers just like AWS or Nvidia if they don’t feel their own core is adequate. I wouldn’t second guess them. They know the economics and they have some advantages.

With Google, Microsoft, AWS and now rumors of Apple all designing and building ARM server processors it seems that X86 IP is over priced.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,825
1,396
126
The margins for X86 CPUs and GPUs are fairly clear with both AMD and Nvidia using wafers from TSMC and reporting on gross margins. Intel’s transistor costs have just be broken out into a foundry line item to clarify their costs. Apple is buying enough wafers to get preferred status either at TSMC or Intel. Apple has CPU, GPU and NPU designs with their own software stack. They can license ARM cores for servers just like AWS or Nvidia if they don’t feel their own core is adequate. I wouldn’t second guess them. They know the economics and they have some advantages.

With Google, Microsoft, AWS and now rumors of Apple all designing and building ARM server processors it seems that X86 IP is over priced.
It's not really about second-guessing Apple, but about second guessing the analyst Jeff Pu. Do you believe his rumour?
 
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poke01

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2022
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It's not really about second-guessing Apple, but about second guessing the analyst Jeff Pu. Do you believe his rumour?
Jeff is much more accurate than Kuo. In fact, he reported the iPhone 17 slim model screen size before Ross Young did. So he has some merit.