Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,825
1,396
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M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:

Screen-Shot-2021-10-18-at-1.20.47-PM.jpg

M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:


M1 Ultra discussion here:


M2 discussion here:


Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:


M4 Family discussion here:

 
Last edited:

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,825
1,396
126
Gurman's M4 release date predictions already seem to be a bit fluid.

Now he is saying that M4 will come around the end of 2024, but only in the 14" MacBook Pro and 24" iMac, and NOT the MacBook Airs.

For M4 Pro/Max MacBook Pros, he states they will come end of 2024/early 2025.

He also suggests M3 Ultra has been shelved. Next Mac Studio could be M4 based in mid 2025, and next Mac Pro could be M4 Ultra in the second half of 2025.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Clearly the M4 will come out exactly 15 months after the M3, allowing both those claiming a 12 month or an 18 month cadence to claim that they were right and that Apple was slightly late/early for reasons and ensure the pointless bickering will continue for at least one more product cycle.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Obviously MT, they are just measuring the CPU/SOC power draw alone, not including the DRAM and stuff. And in that sense it’s accurate.
I am not sure about that. Notebookcheck has measured that the M3 CPU consumes a max of 22W in all core workloads. I believe this was measured using PowerMetrics, which directly gives CPU power (albeit at less accuracy).
 

Curious_Inquirer

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2022
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There’s a pretty interesting post on SemiWiki on how Apple might use Advanced Packaging on the M4. https://semiwiki.com/forum/index.ph...which-might-be-used-on-apple’s-m4-chip.20034/


TSMC has reportedly secured four major clients for its latest SoIC packaging – AMD, Nvidia, Broadcom, and Apple. The chip manufacturer is actively working on increasing its next-generation chip packaging (CoWoS) production capacity.

Apple is testing the next-generation packaging solution​

1691463749132-624x348-1.jpg


Apple will reportedly use SoIC with Hybrid molding (thermoplastic carbon fiber board composite molding technology). The company is currently conducting a small-scale trial production and will reportedly start mass production in 2025. The company is expected to use this next-generation packaging method in its next generation of AI-powered Apple Silicon or the M4 chip.

TSMC’s SoIC is the industry’s first high-density 3D chip stacking technology which enables heterogenous integration of chips with different sizes using Chip-on-Wafer packaging. This innovative packaging method was first introduced in 2018. Reportedly, the planned advanced packaging facility in Chiayi, Taiwan will not only include two CoWoS (Chip on Wafer on Substrate) plants but also an SoIC facility.

Notably, AMD is TSMC’s first customer to adopt SoIC technology. The company used this SoIC tech along with CoWoS on the Instinct MI300 AI accelerator chips, designed for data centers.

As per Mark Gurman, Apple has officially commenced the development of the M4 chip, which will likely debut with the next-generation MacBook Pro. As TrendForce noted, there’s a possibility that Apple will switch to a 2nm process node for the M4 chip.

Regarding the release of the next Apple Silicon, we can see nearly a one and a half year gap between each of the previous iterations. The Apple M1 was released back in November 2020, the M2 was released in June 2022, and the M3 chip was released towards the end of October (a bit earlier) last year. So we can expect Apple to release the M4 chip in the first half of next year.

https://www.gizmochina.com/2024/04/12/apple-testing-tsmc-cowos-chip-packaging-for-m4-chip/
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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As TrendForce noted, there’s a possibility that Apple will switch to a 2nm process node for the M4 chip.
M4 is 3nm. (N3E)
Only with M5, there is a possibility of using 2nm, if not even that will be 3nm. (N3P)
Regarding the release of the next Apple Silicon, we can see nearly a one and a half year gap between each of the previous iterations. The Apple M1 was released back in November 2020, the M2 was released in June 2022, and the M3 chip was released towards the end of October (a bit earlier) last year. So we can expect Apple to release the M4 chip in the first half of next year.
That contradicts Gurman's report which said M4 coming Q4 of this year.
 

Curious_Inquirer

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2022
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M4 is 3nm. (N3E)
Only with M5, there is a possibility of using 2nm, if not even that will be 3nm. (N3P)

That contradicts Gurman's report which said M4 coming Q4 of this year.
Honestly I’m leaning more to a January-February release. They just launched the M3 Air a month ago. They’ll probably want at least 9 months gap to get some sales out of the Airs.
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
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Honestly I’m leaning more to a January-February release. They just launched the M3 Air a month ago. They’ll probably want at least 9 months gap to get some sales out of the Airs.

Yes and they released the first M3 stuff in October. So what stops them from releasing the first M4 stuff this October and waiting until March for the M4 Air?
 
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SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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Yeah I expect the first Apple Silicon made on N2 will be M6, arriving fall 2026 shortly after A20.
Yep if they stick with annual cadences from here on out this is exactly what I’d expect too.

A somewhat interesting question at this point to me is: by the time we get to N2 and the M6, what do the CPU clocks look like on both the E and P cores?
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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A somewhat interesting question at this point to me is: by the time we get to N2 and the M6, what do the CPU clocks look like on both the E and P cores?
Unless Apple gets their marbles together and makes a comeback with their CPU team (it will most likely happen in the M4 or M5 generation), we are talking 5+ GHz.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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I still maintain my stance that Apple could make a comeback in the next two years and bring a major IPC increase to their P cores, whereas you seem to think otherwise.
No, I didn’t say it was impossible, I think it’s unlikely based on the notable recent trends, talent loss.

But if it does happen — a comeback of sorts to regain some lead by going even bigger etc, then I expect it should come the next few years especially now that they’re losing the same size of perf/GHz lead they had (even iso-node) on others.
 

Nothingness

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2013
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No, I didn’t say it was impossible, I think it’s unlikely based on the notable recent trends, talent loss.
They indeed lost some talented people, but I guess they also attracted some new ones (they have attractive salaries and retention plans). Of course they likely lost time, and it remains to be seen how long it will take them to recover from the loss.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Do you guys think the Apple M5 will exceed 200 mm²?

M1 = N5. = 118 mm²
M2 = N5P = 151 mm²
M3 = N3B. = 146 mm²
M4 = N3E. (?) = 165-175 mm² (?)
M5 = N3P (?) = 200-210 mm² (?)

If it is on N3P and not N2, I think it certainly will.
 

FlameTail

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2021
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Also the CPU. From M1->M3 generation, the CPU has stuck to a 4P+4E configuration.

I have a feeling that M4 or M5, will upgrade that to 6P+4E or 4P+6E.