Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[ashFTW]

Thanks, that's helpful. That almost makes we want to take @Muadib's advice and just get a remote for my 2017 unit. But I should probably get more storage on that thing. It's 32 GB and runs out of space because of the screensavers. It doesn't affect app installation though, since it just deletes extra screensavers when I need more space. How much space did you have in your 2021 and did you have a ton of apps?

All my 2021s (and I believe the 2017 one as well) have 64GB, which has been more than plenty since I don’t play any games, and my kids are all grown up. I have maybe 30 apps installed. Lets see if I’ll see any benefit from the increased storage, and the new one will download any more screensavers that I haven’t seen before..

I lost the remote on my main Apple TV. I searched everywhere and got very OCD about it. Tried using my phone as a remote but I found the experience to not be very satisfactory. The replacement cost was $60 or something, which is quite substantial for a device that costs roughly double that. So I just decided to get a new one and replace my aging 2017 unit.

 

[Doug S]

All my 2021s (and I believe the 2017 one as well) have 64GB, which has been more than plenty since I don’t play any games, and my kids are all grown up. I have maybe 30 apps installed. Lets see if I’ll see any benefit from the increased storage, and the new one will download any more screensavers that I haven’t seen before..

I lost the remote on my main Apple TV. I searched everywhere and got very OCD about it. Tried using my phone as a remote but I found the experience to not be very satisfactory. The replacement cost was $60 or something, which is quite substantial for a device that costs roughly double that. So I just decided to get a new one and replace my aging 2017 unit.

When I got my 2017 at a discount after the 2021 came out, I had read about the difference in remotes so I knew I wanted the newer remote. I bought a new remote at the same time and ebayed the old one - cost me less than $15 after counting the sale of my never used 2017 remote. Perhaps there's a bigger price gap now that people are more aware of the difference.

 

[scannall]

All my 2021s (and I believe the 2017 one as well) have 64GB, which has been more than plenty since I don’t play any games, and my kids are all grown up. I have maybe 30 apps installed. Lets see if I’ll see any benefit from the increased storage, and the new one will download any more screensavers that I haven’t seen before..

I lost the remote on my main Apple TV. I searched everywhere and got very OCD about it. Tried using my phone as a remote but I found the experience to not be very satisfactory. The replacement cost was $60 or something, which is quite substantial for a device that costs roughly double that. So I just decided to get a new one and replace my aging 2017 unit.

When my remote went missing I replaced it with this remote. $11.00 and it works great.

 

[ashFTW]

When my remote went missing I replaced it with this remote. $11.00 and it works great.

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[Doug S]

When my remote went missing I replaced it with this remote. $11.00 and it works great.

No bluetooth makes that no good for me. I have my Apple TV (and Tivo) in a different room than the TV so it can be mounted on the wall with no visible wires. Also no voice control, though I don't really use that.

Still for $11 you can't have everything. Do those FF / REW buttons on the bottom work on the Apple TV?

 

[scannall]

No bluetooth makes that no good for me. I have my Apple TV (and Tivo) in a different room than the TV so it can be mounted on the wall with no visible wires. Also no voice control, though I don't really use that.

Still for $11 you can't have everything. Do those FF / REW buttons on the bottom work on the Apple TV?

Yes they do. For the money I have zero complaints.

 

[Eug]

DigiTimes claims the TSMC N3 wafers will be over US$20000 each. This is up from $16000-$17000 for N5.

TSMC wafer prices for 3nm top US$20,000

TSMC has seen its sale price per wafer rise exponentially starting from sub-10nm process nodes, with wafer prices for 3nm topping US$20,000, according to industry sources.

www.digitimes.com

It's paywalled, but this translated table pretty much summarizes it. I don't know exactly what they mean by "N3" though. All of the N3 series? N3X? Etc. And I guess the cost would vary depending upon volume.

When my remote went missing I replaced it with this remote. $11.00 and it works great.

I just picked up an as-new 2nd gen Siri remote for < US$30 off Kijiji, for my 2017 Apple TV. It is by far the best. Here are the 3 types of Apple TV remotes I have now, and all work with my Apple TV 4K.



The left one is from older Apple TVs. It functions similarly what you describe for your eBay knockoff one. FF/RW works, but there is no trackpad support so quick navigation around a video is not possible. With the trackpad on the newer remotes you can jump to anywhere in the video in an instant.

For the middle one, it gains Siri and the trackpad but loses the FF/RW buttons. If you click on the edges it's supposed to function like FF/RW, but if you don't click in the exact right spots it doesn't work. Very frustrating.

The one on the right is best of both worlds. As you know, it has actual click buttons and the centre is also a button functioning as an 'enter' button, but that whole circular surface also functions as a trackpad. Works great.

I may try to find another cheap used 2nd gen Siri remote for my old Apple TV HD on another TV. That 2015 Apple TV model is noticeably slow with its A8 and 2 GB RAM, but it's not slow enough to be painful.

A8 / 2 GB - 2015 Apple TV HD
A10X / 3 GB - 2017 Apple TV 4K (1st gen)
A12 / 3 GB - 2021 Apple TV 4K (2nd gen)
A15 / 4 GB - 2022 Apple TV 4K (3rd gen)

All of the above Apple TVs work with all of the 3 remotes in the pic, and all of the above run the latest version of tvOS.

Anyhow, I've returned the Apple TV 4K 2nd gen I just got. I figure my A10X 1st gen ATV 4K + 2nd gen Siri remote is roughly equivalent to the A12 2nd gen ATV 4K, aside from future updates. Geekbench Metal for A10X is actually faster than A12, although in some iPad games A12 is better than A10X. However, in 2023, neither is actually fast for games. If I'm going to replace that A10X in my home theatre, I may as well get the latest 3rd gen model with more RAM, double the max storage, and much faster A15 SoC. I'm not a gamer, but it'd give me an excuse to finally take advantage of the 3-month free subscription to Apple Arcade.

 

[Doug S]

DigiTimes claims the TSMC N3 wafers will be over US$20000 each. This is up from $16000-$17000 for N5.

Pretty much what I expected given much smaller increase in EUV layers from N5 -> N3 versus N7 -> N5. Not gonna break anyone's bank.

The bigger question is how much will the N2 and the generation after N2 cost. How many process steps does GAA add? How many more steps will CFET add? Backside power should improve the cost, but it is unclear by how much. Not nearly enough to account for the extra manufacturing complexity of ever more vertical transistors, of that we can be sure!

 

[LightningZ71]

if the customer derives a benefit from it, I assure you, they will charge accordingly.

 

[moinmoin]

The cost increase is unexpectedly tame for 3nm if that table is correct.

90nm -> 40nm: +30%
40nm -> 28nm: +~16%
28nm -> 10nm: +100%
10nm -> 7nm: +~67%
7nm -> 5nm: +60%
5nm -> 3nm: +25%

 

[Doug S]

The cost increase is unexpectedly tame for 3nm if that table is correct.

90nm -> 40nm: +30%
40nm -> 28nm: +~16%
28nm -> 10nm: +100%
10nm -> 7nm: +~67%
7nm -> 5nm: +60%
5nm -> 3nm: +25%

Are those the prices when the new process was released, or the current prices? The per wafer prices decrease over time as they amortize a process's overhead.

 

[moinmoin]

Are those the prices when the new process was released, or the current prices? The per wafer prices decrease over time as they amortize a process's overhead.

Good question. @Eug was there anything about that in the text?

 

[Eug]

Good question. @Eug was there anything about that in the text?

I dont have an account either but there is no paywall in Chinese.

台積電3奈米代工價突破2萬美元　iPhone 15、GPU漲價有感

全球晶圓代工7奈米先進製程技術大戰高下立判，不僅7奈米EUV取得首勝，5/4奈米在超微(AMD)、蘋果(Apple)、博通(Broadcom)、英特爾(Intel)等擴大下單，以及NVIDIA與高通(Qualcomm)年度大作紛...

www.digitimes.com.tw

I ran it thru auto translate and it’s a bit confusing but I don’t think they directly address this question. I don’t quite understand what the last sentence of this paragraph means though.

Autotranslate:

Semiconductor operators said that the 5/4 nanometer cost is high, and the quotation of 3 nanometers is more than 20,000 US dollars, which will make the cost of large chip factories quite sensational, and it will be passed on to downstream customers. When it comes to the price of terminal access, the annual quotation of new products will be higher than when the old products are launched at the same time.

 

[jpiniero]

Are those the prices when the new process was released, or the current prices? The per wafer prices decrease over time as they amortize a process's overhead.

TSMC's prices have been going up and not down. The N3 price I'm guessing is too low.

 

[LightningZ71]

Don't forget that, unless the chip vendors are pushing the transistor counts through the roof, new die tend to be a bit smaller then previous die. This results in more die per wafer, and keeps the total cost per die somewhat stable. The problems come when competitive pressures push chip makers to balloon transistor counts through the roof and the die sizes don't go down. Then, you get massive die sizes like the top end Nvidia GPUs and the cost increases astronomically.

 

[Doug S]

TSMC's prices have been going up and not down. The N3 price I'm guessing is too low.

The last couple years with all the shortages have not been typical, and TSMC won't be able to avoid resuming their standard lowering prices on older nodes as those shortages subside or they will lose capacity to other foundries. It may not be a lot of players in on the bleeding edge, but go back to 10nm or beyond and there's a lot of competition and more coming online in China every day.

The shortages have persisted beyond their original cause because many companies rethought their inventory levels to be more resilient against future supply shocks. Once those inventories are full across all industries TSMC's order book on older nodes will drop like a rock. This is probably already happening.

 

[moinmoin]

I dont have an account either but there is no paywall in Chinese.

台積電3奈米代工價突破2萬美元　iPhone 15、GPU漲價有感

全球晶圓代工7奈米先進製程技術大戰高下立判，不僅7奈米EUV取得首勝，5/4奈米在超微(AMD)、蘋果(Apple)、博通(Broadcom)、英特爾(Intel)等擴大下單，以及NVIDIA與高通(Qualcomm)年度大作紛...

www.digitimes.com.tw

Thanks for the link. Reading it through deepl.com it does sound like they take the cost at the time the respective nodes are introduced:

"However, as process technology advances from generation to generation, prices continue to rise. According to the semiconductor industry, TSMC released a 90nm wafer at the end of 2004, using a 193nm wet exposure machine with water as the medium, replacing the traditional 157nm dry exposure machine. At that time, 90nm wafers were quoted at nearly US$2,000 and 65nm at over US$2,000.

In 2008, the 40nm process increased slightly to around US$2,600, and in 2014, 28nm exceeded US$3,000. 10nm prices have increased significantly, with 12" wafers coming in at around US$6,000 per wafer. AI, networking, 5G, and high-performance computing products such as CPUs and GPUs.

As we enter the 7nm generation, the price per wafer has doubled to nearly US$10,000, and 5nm has already exceeded US$16,000, not counting a further 6% price increase in 2023.

According to the semiconductor industry, the high 5/4nm foundry price and the 3nm quotation of US$20,000 will make the chip makers feel the cost increase, which will be passed on to their customers, and the price of new products will be higher than the old ones launched at the same time."

 

[Doug S]

According to the semiconductor industry, the high 5/4nm foundry price and the 3nm quotation of US$20,000 will make the chip makers feel the cost increase, which will be passed on to their customers, and the price of new products will be higher than the old ones launched at the same time."

I wonder at what point they begin to shrink the size of their chips rather than keeping them constant and finding some use for twice as many transistors every 3 years? i.e. if Apple considers 100 mm^2 to be the nominal size for the iPhone SoC over the past decade, do they still plan to make it around the same size for N3, N2 and beyond even if the per wafer price goes to $20K, $25K, $30K over the next few process generations? Having an SoC that used to be a $30 part of your BOM balloon to over $100 would mean raising the price of an iPhone or making big cuts elsewhere (flash keeps getting cheaper and they are no longer doubling the amount of DRAM every other year like in the early days of the iPhone...so maybe?)

Apple has been adding a lot of cache despite its increasingly poor scaling, so an improvement in cache density/scaling (from vertical transistors and BPR) could allow them to slowly cut their chip size over time without compromising their designs.

 

[Eug]

I gave up waiting. Even though it may possibly be just a few more months for a 24 GB M2 Mac mini, I bought a used 16 GB / 1 TB M1 Mac mini instead, as well as a Black Friday discounted USB 4 / Thunderbolt 4 hub to go along with it to compensate for the Mac mini's lack of ports. (The TB4 hub converts one host Thunderbolt 4 port to three Thunderbolt 4 + one USB-A). I had been checking the used market for M1 Max Mac Studios, but they are very expensive. Not much point in getting one of those used. Plus, some people have complained about fan whine with some of them.

On another note, we were considering getting our kid a Nintendo Switch, but that console is 5 years old now so I thought it might make sense to wait another year or so to see if Nintendo releases a new one. In the meantime I bought a 128 GB A15-based Apple TV 4K (3rd gen), along with an Xbox wireless controller for Apple Arcade. (You can get some decent discounts on Amazon returns.) I know people haven't been too impressed with Apple Arcade, but hopefully it will be enough to keep the kid satisfied for a few months at least.

 

[poke01]

I gave up waiting. Even though it may possibly be just a few more months for a 24 GB M2 Mac mini, I bought a used 16 GB / 1 TB M1 Mac mini instead, as well as a Black Friday discounted USB 4 / Thunderbolt 4 hub to go along with it to compensate for the Mac mini's lack of ports. (The TB4 hub converts one host Thunderbolt 4 port to three Thunderbolt 4 + one USB-A). I had been checking the used market for M1 Max Mac Studios, but they are very expensive. Not much point in getting one of those used. Plus, some people have complained about fan whine with some of them.

On another note, we were considering getting our kid a Nintendo Switch, but that console is 5 years old now so I thought it might make sense to wait another year or so to see if Nintendo releases a new one. In the meantime I bought a 128 GB A15-based Apple TV 4K (3rd gen), along with an Xbox wireless controller for Apple Arcade. (You can get some decent discounts on Amazon returns.) I know people haven't been too impressed with Apple Arcade, but hopefully it will be enough to keep the kid satisfied for a few months at least.

I would highly recommend Xbox Series S and Gamepass. I have seen the series S go as low as $199 and it has Apple TV app and Apple Music app as well along with other steaming services.

I had the Series S for over a year now and it's been amazing. Just an suggestion of course.

Enjoy the Mac mini, great piece of kit.

 

[Eug]

In the meantime I bought a 128 GB A15-based Apple TV 4K (3rd gen), along with an Xbox wireless controller for Apple Arcade. (You can get some decent discounts on Amazon returns.) I know people haven't been too impressed with Apple Arcade, but hopefully it will be enough to keep the kid satisfied for a few months at least.

Scratch that. Got scammed on the 2022 Apple TV 4K (3rd gen). Got the box from Amazon, and... it contained a 2017 Apple TV 4K (1st gen). So, back it goes.

On the flip side, the M1 Mac mini I got was pristine. I knew the warranty had already expired, but I checked its SSD stats with DriveDx, and it has only 2.5 TB of writes total, with less than 1 week of power on time.

Last Checked                         : November 26, 2022 9:44:25 PM EST
Last Checked (ISO 8601 format)       : 2022-11-26T21:44:25

Advanced SMART Status                : OK
Overall Health Rating                : GOOD 100%
SSD Lifetime Left Indicator          : GOOD 100%
Issues found                         : 0

Serial Number                        :
WWN Id                               :
Volumes                              : Eug Mac mini M1
Device Path                          : /dev/disk0
Total Capacity                       : 1.0 TB (1,000,555,581,440 Bytes)
Model Family                         : Apple NVMe Q-series SSD
Model                                : APPLE SSD AP1024Q
Firmware Version                     : 873.40.4
Drive Type                           : SSD

Power On Time                        : 143 hours (5 days 23 hours)
Power Cycles Count                   : 157
Current Power Cycle Time             : 0.5 hours

=== PROBLEMS SUMMARY ===
Failed Indicators (life-span / pre-fail)  : 0 (0 / 0)
Failing Indicators (life-span / pre-fail) : 0 (0 / 0)
Warnings (life-span / pre-fail)           : 0 (0 / 0)
I/O Error Count                           : 0 (0 / 0)

=== IMPORTANT HEALTH INDICATORS ===
ID  NAME                                         RAW VALUE                  STATUS
  7 Data Units Written                           4,923,895 (2.5 TB)         100% OK
 14 Media and Data Integrity Errors              0                          100% OK

The thing must have just been sitting in a cupboard unused for most of its life on this earth.

 

[Doug S]

Scratch that. Got scammed on the 2022 Apple TV 4K (3rd gen). Got the box from Amazon, and... it contained a 2017 Apple TV 4K (1st gen). So, back it goes.

I have to wonder if someone didn't buy the 2022, put their 2017 in the box and return it, relying on the people processing returns at Amazon to not know, not care or be too overwhelmed to notice, then you bought the return.

 

[Eug]

I have to wonder if someone didn't buy the 2022, put their 2017 in the box and return it, relying on the people processing returns at Amazon to not know, not care or be too overwhelmed to notice, then you bought the return.

That's exactly what happened. It was an Amazon Warehouse purchase, so a returned item. The 2017 Apple TV clearly did not fit in the 2022 box, and the printed picture in the box didn't match what was in the box. The remote inside the box was clearly completely different from the remote printed on the outside of the box.

Anyhow, this is my new Mac setup. New and old together: M1 Mac mini with Dual-Link DVI 30-inch Cinema Display.



And I'm happy to report that so far this Thunderbolt 4 / USB4 hub with Intel Goshen Ridge chipset works nicely with Apple Silicon.

Intel® JHL8440 Thunderbolt™ 4 Controller - Product Specifications | Intel

Intel® JHL8440 Thunderbolt™ 4 Controller quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.

www.intel.com

Intel's Maple Ridge (JHL8540) Thunderbolt 4 Controller Now Shipping

www.anandtech.com

For USB 3 (USB-A) I actually get faster speeds through the hub than directly from the Mac, for a USB-C 2 TB Samsung T7 Shield external SSD.

Mac USB-A - 375 MB/s write, 300 MB/s read
Mac USB-C - 815 MB/s write, 580 MB/s read

Hub USB-A - 695 MB/s write, 455 MB/s read
Hub USB-C - 710 MB/s write, 510 MB/s read

Not sure why the Mac's USB-A is so slow. I tried both USB 3 ports with the same results. And I can't use the Mac's USB-C port, because there are only two of them, and one port is going to the monitor and one port is going to the Thunderbolt hub.

My original plan was connect my external SSD directly to the Mac via USB-A, and connect my external Time Machine hard drive drive to the hub, but I guess I'll be doing it the other way around.

I guess M1's built-in USB controller just ain't that great for USB 3 via USB-A.

 

[Roland00Address]

Anyhow, this is my new Mac setup. New and old together: M1 Mac mini with Dual-Link DVI 30-inch Cinema Display.

You are going to run that monitor forever aren't you? (says me who is currently on a desktop looking at my Achievia Shimian QH270, aka the same monitor panel as the 2012 Apple Cinema and Thunderbolt displays 😊 )

 

[Eug]

Mac USB-A - 375 MB/s write, 300 MB/s read

Hub USB-A - 695 MB/s write, 455 MB/s read

Not sure why the Mac's USB-A is so slow. I tried both USB 3 ports with the same results.

It turns out the Mac mini’s USB-A ports are only 5 Gbps, but the hub supports 10 Gbps over USB-A. The SSD is spec’d for 10 Gbps as well.

The Mac Studio may offer no advantage here since its USB-A ports are also 5 Gbps.