moinmoin
Diamond Member
- Jun 1, 2017
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My guess would be Apple wants complete control over the graphics stack and that's why dGPUs won't be supported.
They might still have a specialty GPU card in the desktop Mac Pro in the future, but it would be a special compute accelerator, not a general purpose GPU, and it would probably be an Apple Silicon based GPU.It seems odd that it won't have dGPU support. I get that their iGPUs are plenty powerful, but, that seems short sided as there are some very powerful pro series cards with specific purposes. However, I can see the other uses for PCIe slots, such as additional NVME capacity, using CXL for RAM expansion, and additional I/O capabilities.
I wouldn't be surprised if that and/or another Apple-branded PCIe card gets announced at the same time as the Mac Pro (although not necessarily released immediately). That would make sense from a marketing standpoint anyway.They might still have a specialty GPU card in the desktop Mac Pro in the future, but it would be a special compute accelerator, not a general purpose GPU, and it would probably be an Apple Silicon based GPU.
Cool, thanks for all that for either I missed it or I forgot. Thank you for your passion and expertise Eug 🙂When they released Mac Studio, Apple actually made a point of saying the Mac Pro is still coming (which is unusual for Apple), although they also conspicuously refrained from mentioning the 2 year time frame this time around.
They might still have a specialty GPU card in the desktop Mac Pro in the future, but it would be a special compute accelerator, not a general purpose GPU, and it would probably be an Apple Silicon based GPU.
This isn't a generic dGPU, it's a specific compute resource, where you basically batch off some kind of big parallel compute job to run on the compute accelerator card. It will have it's own low latency memory, so doesn't need super low latency access to system memory.Apple's direct sharing of the entire memory hierarchy between the CPUs, GPU, NPU, etc. has some advantages, but one of the big disadvantages is that a discrete GPU can't participate in that. Well, it could I suppose in the sense that you can map PCIe memory into a place where it is accessible by the CPU, but access speeds and latencies would be terrible compared to iGPU memory. Applications would all assume fast access (including remote snooping into other domains) so that dGPU might perform worse than the iGPU even if on paper it was much faster. Devs would ignore this sort of halo market of a few thousand people who bought a dGPU for their Mac Pro unless they have a very niche app that was only marketed to them and cost so much it would be worth it - so the only people who would want a dGPU are those who would buy this niche software. Sort of a chicken and an egg situation.
Chiplets, and they remain viable for MANY years because you really aren't competing with anything here. It's niche product, that you might build using multiples of the same chiplet for 5 years. So one mask in 5 years isn't a big issue.The other problem is that in order to create a dGPU faster than the iGPU Apple would have to create a new die - a 'Max' die that cuts out the CPUs, NPU, etc. and fills all that space with more GPU cores. The cost of the mask set versus the tiny addressable market size says that's not even remotely a viable option.
It's probably not outright defective, but a case where there's a one or more leaky e-cores that isn't stable at the voltages Apple wants to use for the clock speeds they're targeting.Yeah 1P/3E would make the chip quite weak compared to its predecessor. It’s still surprising that Apple is binning like this. The E-cluster occupies a very small area; how many chips do they really have with defective 4th E core??
TSMC said in their earnings call (which was Oct 13th) that N3 would be "mid single digits" of revenue in 2023. They also stuck to the +1 year for N3E but also said they might pull it in a quarter or two... but even that would be too late for the 2023 iPhone.I'm curious, where are you reading N3E is too late for the 2023 iPhones? FWIW, Nikkei disagrees with you.
I just ordered the 2021 Apple TV, but I'm wondering if I should have just spent the extra fifty bucks to get the 2022, mainly because of the upgraded SoC (A12 --> A15) and extra RAM (3 GB --> 4 GB). (Apple removed Ethernet support in their 64 GB 2022 model, so to get that you have to jump up to the 128 GB model, which is complete overkill for someone like me who doesn't play games on Apple TV.)Yeah 1P/3E would make the chip quite weak compared to its predecessor. It’s still surprising that Apple is binning like this. The E-cluster occupies a very small area; how many chips do they really have with defective 4th E core??
What a degenerate corporation.Apple removed Ethernet support in their 64 GB 2022 model, so to get that you have to jump up to the 128 GB model, which is complete overkill for someone like me who doesn't play games on Apple TV
I just ordered the 2021 Apple TV, but I'm wondering if I should have just spent the extra fifty bucks to get the 2022, mainly because of the upgraded SoC (A12 --> A15) and extra RAM (3 GB --> 4 GB). (Apple removed Ethernet support in their 64 GB 2022 model, so to get that you have to jump up to the 128 GB model, which is complete overkill for someone like me who doesn't play games on Apple TV.)
I'm using a 2017 model, and the main reason for the upgrade isn't actually the SoC. It's mainly the remote, because the 2017's remote just sucks. The 2017 uses A10X and has 3 GB RAM.
I don't really know the comparative single-core speeds since I'm not sure if they run the same clock speeds as in the phones and iPads. Also, the 2017 and 2021 have a fan but the 2022 is fanless in a smaller case.
That is not correct. Apple TV+ averages at close to 30 Mbps, and peaks at over 40 Mbps. Below says 41 Mbps, but I've seen posts that state up to around 45 Mbps with some content like their show See.Why does ethernet support matter, even if you have to go through several walls you don't need more than 20 Mbps or so for 4K streaming. I used to use ethernet more extensively at home but the only thing I have connected via ethernet now is my PC. Everything else is wireless, even stuff like my Apple TV and Tivo that could be wired and have a jack right next to them. I suppose if you live in a dense apartment building type situation wifi could be near useless with all the APs surrounding you.
I'm not sure what the extra CPU power would get you. It's going to use a dedicated video decoder for actually playing videos.I just ordered the 2021 Apple TV, but I'm wondering if I should have just spent the extra fifty bucks to get the 2022, mainly because of the upgraded SoC (A12 --> A15) and extra RAM (3 GB --> 4 GB).
May help him if Apple decides to launch a newer tvOS that is harder on the older CPUs. Plus, he gets updates for a few more years.The only thing the extra CPU power and RAM might do is make apps and switching between them more fluid.
Then you just need a remote.I just ordered the 2021 Apple TV, but I'm wondering if I should have just spent the extra fifty bucks to get the 2022, mainly because of the upgraded SoC (A12 --> A15) and extra RAM (3 GB --> 4 GB). (Apple removed Ethernet support in their 64 GB 2022 model, so to get that you have to jump up to the 128 GB model, which is complete overkill for someone like me who doesn't play games on Apple TV.)
I'm using a 2017 model, and the main reason for the upgrade isn't actually the SoC. It's mainly the remote, because the 2017's remote just sucks. The 2017 uses A10X and has 3 GB RAM.
I don't really know the comparative single-core speeds since I'm not sure if they run the same clock speeds as in the phones and iPads. Also, the 2017 and 2021 have a fan but the 2022 is fanless in a smaller case.
Heh. Thanks. I'm going to use the old Apple TV on a different TV.Then you just need a remote.
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Siri Remote
The Siri Remote (3rd generation) brings precise control to your Apple TV 4K.1 Its touch-enabled clickpad lets you select titles, swipe through playlists, and use a circular gesture on the outer ring to find just the scene you’re looking for. With Siri, you can find what you want to watch using...www.apple.com
Sorry, I was hungry. Nice Invader Zim reference though."Gaz" is dead because it's actually outside and unfortunately something chewed through the outdoor Ethernet cabling.![]()
May help him if Apple decides to launch a newer tvOS that is harder on the older CPUs. Plus, he gets updates for a few more years.
Yeah, Morris Chang, who founded TSMC, reiterated today that Arizona would be N5 in phase 1 and then N3 in phase 2, although the plans for phase 2 have not yet been finalized.This is just PR for TSMC and Apple. Sure they will still be using some N4/N5 stuff in 2024 - if nothing else for the 2022 Apple TV which will likely still be sold then - but 90% of their needs will have moved to N3. And by the time the N3 fab that's recently been talked about comes online (assuming it happens) 90% of Apple's needs will have moved to N2.
TSMC has been clear that their state of the art production will remain exclusive to Taiwan, and that's Apple's bread and butter. The only way Apple sources a meaningful portion of its chip needs from the US is if they someday switch to Intel's foundry.
Thanks, that's helpful. That almost makes we want to take @Muadib's advice and just get a remote for my 2017 unit. But I should probably get more storage on that thing. It's 32 GB and runs out of space because of the screensavers. It doesn't affect app installation though, since it just deletes extra screensavers when I need more space. How much space did you have in your 2021 and did you have a ton of apps?I just got a 2022/128GB Apple TV 4K; I have a few 2021 models, and one 2017 as well. I don‘t see much difference (perhaps it’s a bit snappier and may be able to download more Aerial screensavers) in user experience compared to the 2021 model it replaced. It’s definitely smaller and much lighter. And I’m using Wi-Fi with all but one without issues. I have no need for HDR10+ support as none of my TVs support it, but I’m looking forward to trying out Thread support next year.
This variation in reports as to OS and app loading speed reminds me of what people talk about when an iPhone is several years old but getting the latest OS. Most people think the interface speed is totally OK but others complain it's become more laggy. This reminds me of my wife's recent desire to upgrade from her iPhone XR, which coincidentally also has an A12 and 3 GB RAM under the hood. Her main reason to upgrade was to get the new-fangled camera actually, not SoC performance. She didn't have any specific problems with the XR's OS navigation speed, but once she got her iPhone 14 Pro Max with A16 and 6 GB RAM, she said it was obviously noticeably faster. (She's not a tech geek and still uses an iPad 7 with A10 and 3 GB RAM with no complaints.) I played with both phones, and yes the A16 Pro Max was indeed noticeably faster even just for navigation, but then again there was nothing wrong with the A12 XR. It was perfectly fine for regular use and surfing. I could use a XR full time in terms of speed, although I wouldn't like its mediocre and single-lens camera, and Safari probably refreshes more than I'd like vs. 6 GB iPhones.CNN said:I’ve been using the 2021 version of the Apple TV 4K as my main streaming device since it was released, and after going through the initial setup process on the new Apple TV 4K, I immediately noticed a difference in how fast the apps loaded and navigation felt. Across the board, there was a noticeable difference.
One area where the speed boost was apparent was when I used Siri to request information, search the App Store or start a binge-watching session. Siri not only loaded faster, but the responses were almost instantaneous. Granted, part of the reason Siri loads faster is due to the new Siri interface that looks more like Siri on the iPad, taking up only a corner of the screen instead of taking over the entire TV.
Another area where the performance just felt faster was how quickly the Apple TV app would open and populate with suggestions of what to watch next.
"Actually, it's not at the same time. Right now, we are ramping up by N3. And N3E is supposed to be 1 year apart, but because of the progressTSMC said in their earnings call (which was Oct 13th) that N3 would be "mid single digits" of revenue in 2023. They also stuck to the +1 year for N3E but also said they might pull it in a quarter or two... but even that would be too late for the 2023 iPhone.
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