Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

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poke01

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MacBook Pro 14" 2021: Kioxia KICM225UZ0460 128 GB NAND Flash Memory
The 14" MacBook Pro uses 2 NAND chips of 256GB for a total of 512GB SSD.

I think iFixit has a typo there. It should be Kioxia KICM225UZ0460 256 GB NAND Flash Memory.
As you can see the 14" Macbook only has 2 NAND chips in highlighted in yellow.
I say this because this macbook comes with 512GB SSD for the base model.

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Doug S

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When SMART reports 1% used that doesn't necessarily mean it has written 1% of the rated TBW. It might use other methods to determine that, there is no requirement the "media wearout" indicator use TBW or the number of program/erase cycles the NAND devices have undergone.

I think we'd need to see a sample size greater than 1, and some examples with a double digit amount of drive life "used up" before we believe the SSD has a TBW of 3000 TB. If we had a half dozen people reporting and it all pointed to 3000 TB that's a different story but for now I'd say there simply isn't enough evidence.

As to how, TLC/QLC cells can be operated as SLC cells, so given decent overprovisioning it would make a lot of sense to internally tier data so blocks that are getting written often are put into cells acting as SLC and blocks that are rarely or never rewritten use SLC/QLC cells.

Apple has a big advantage compared to buying a random SSD and sticking it in a Windows PC in that they are using raw NAND, with their own controller, their own OS, and own filesystem. If they fully exploit all the NAND die level knowledge the filesystem would have access to, and filesystem level knowledge their controller would have access to, there is a lot of potential benefit to be had.
 

igor_kavinski

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Apple has a big advantage compared to buying a random SSD and sticking it in a Windows PC in that they are using raw NAND, with their own controller, their own OS, and own filesystem. If they fully exploit all the NAND die level knowledge the filesystem would have access to, and filesystem level knowledge their controller would have access to, there is a lot of potential benefit to be had.
They are probably using updated and improved Anobit flash controllers. For all we know, they could be extracting MLC level endurance out of TLC with Anobit's special sauce.
 

DrMrLordX

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The actual download still takes a order of magnitude longer than the installation.
Not necessarily. Most of my GoG installers are very slow. The downloads can take a few minutes, tops. Granted I have fast Internet but.

This mainly matters to specification nerds that haunt internet forums.
I'm still gobsmacked that you want a "premium" brand (or anyone, really ,other than bargain basement crap) to stay on slow-and-getting-slower SSDs.

Sure it sucks that some specification of the entry level config has gone backwards on the bottom storage config, but it's still over 1GB/s
It also sucks that anyone's making excuses for it.
 

igor_kavinski

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Apple's Sin No.1: Charging a high price at the entry level.

Sin No.2: Using a laughably small SSD in a premium laptop when you have $300 mobile phones with 256GB storage.

Sin No.3: Due to the small SSD, performance suffers due to less channel-level parallelism.

And then we have Apple aficionados committing the ultimate sin: defending Apple's anti-consumer practices which by the way seem anti-consumer only to people outside the Apple fence. Apple consumers themselves are grateful that they got 256GB. Why, Apple could have given them 128GB and they would have no recourse. The rest of us complain in the hope that maybe they will realize that yes, Apple is giving them the short end of the stick. So far, it doesn't seem to be working.
 

poke01

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Apple's Sin No.1: Charging a high price at the entry level.

Sin No.2: Using a laughably small SSD in a premium laptop when you have $300 mobile phones with 256GB storage.

Sin No.3: Due to the small SSD, performance suffers due to less channel-level parallelism.

And then we have Apple aficionados committing the ultimate sin: defending Apple's anti-consumer practices which by the way seem anti-consumer only to people outside the Apple fence. Apple consumers themselves are grateful that they got 256GB. Why, Apple could have given them 128GB and they would have no recourse. The rest of us complain in the hope that maybe they will realize that yes, Apple is giving them the short end of the stick. So far, it doesn't seem to be working.
$300 mobile phones do not have SSDs and have weak UFS storage with very poor read/write speeds.
The M2 MacBook Air should not come with 256GB SSD nor 8GB RAM. I have seen many Apple reviews about the M2 MBA and almost no Apple user is happy with the
level of specs Apple is providing.

Where are you getting that info Apple consumers are happy at the 256GB SSD on the Air? Most people in the Apple universe are saying to get the 14" MacBook for a MUCH better value and the M2 Air is a waste of money due to the base model being bad value.
 

guidryp

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Apr 3, 2006
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It also sucks that anyone's making excuses for it.
Not making excuses. Just pointing out the reality that it doesn't matter in practice, to the VAST majority of buyers (if any), and your excessive concern over this is greatly misplaced.

The more you rant about it, the more excessive and misplaced it gets.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
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Not making excuses. Just pointing out the reality that it doesn't matter in practice, to the VAST majority of buyers (if any), and your excessive concern over this is greatly misplaced.

The more you rant about it, the more excessive and misplaced it gets.
I'm not ranting, and it isn't excessive. It's pro-consumer to want people to get more for their money. That's it. Is that so hard to understand? Even if they don't notice it except maybe 1-2% of the time?
 

guidryp

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I'm not ranting, and it isn't excessive. It's pro-consumer to want people to get more for their money. That's it. Is that so hard to understand? Even if they don't notice it except maybe 1-2% of the time?
What you want is irrelevant. They would notice 0% of the time, because it's not a perceptible difference. You need to run a benchmark to tell.
 

DrMrLordX

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What you want is irrelevant.
If that's the case, that goes for anyone else! Why even have this discussion then, hmm?

This is still a tech enthusiast forum. Not a "pick your favorite corporation and shill for them" forum. If I see someone buying a computer, I'd rather they got the better end of the deal, even if they pick hardware I would never choose for myself.
 

guidryp

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If that's the case, that goes for anyone else! Why even have this discussion then, hmm?

This is still a tech enthusiast forum. Not a "pick your favorite corporation and shill for them" forum. If I see someone buying a computer, I'd rather they got the better end of the deal, even if they pick hardware I would never choose for myself.
But this isn't lobbying that is going to change anything, it's just ranting.

Just ranting incessantly about detail with no perceptible impact, for a product you would never buy, just seems like concern trolling.
 

KompuKare

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Jul 28, 2009
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But this isn't lobbying that is going to change anything, it's just ranting.

Just ranting incessantly about detail with no perceptible impact, for a product you would never buy, just seems like concern trolling.
Ah, but due Apple being so super profitable they set trends other companies follow.
The soldered DRAM trend which Apple started had got so bad that even business-class laptops like the ThinkPad X200 series now are all soldered. Thinkpads used to sell because they were serviceable, now they build them to go straight to landfill.
Obviously, Lenovo can make their own mistakes but Apple is the trend setter for locked hardware. And it's a trend most computer enthusiasts are not happy with.
 

DrMrLordX

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But this isn't lobbying that is going to change anything, it's just ranting.
If it's just ranting to you, you could, you know, just say "stop ranting" instead of engaging in a lengthy discussion trying to somehow prove the content of what I said wrong. At which point I would remind you that it isn't ranting, that it's valid criticism, and you'd roll your eyes and we'd be done with it.

Apple is being cheap. People will notice it occasionally. And that's it. You want anything else you'll have to go argue with someone else.

Will Apple get the message?
Not really related to the main thread topic (M1/M2), but no, they're not interested in true interoperability.
 
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guidryp

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Ah, but due Apple being so super profitable they set trends other companies follow.
The soldered DRAM trend which Apple started had got so bad that even business-class laptops like the ThinkPad X200 series now are all soldered. Thinkpads used to sell because they were serviceable, now they build them to go straight to landfill.
Obviously, Lenovo can make their own mistakes but Apple is the trend setter for locked hardware. And it's a trend most computer enthusiasts are not happy with.
Soldered RAM is another non issue for laptops. RAM is Extremely durable, so won't be a reason to landfill a computer.

Also if soldered RAM is such a big issue for you, Lenovo has a LARGE amount of models with RAM slots. You don't have to focus on the thinnest models with soldered RAM and complain about the soldered RAM. Get a model with RAM slots, if you want RAM slots.

Here the molehill being made into a mountain is the base storage speed being only ~1.4GB/s. This is also a non perceptible, non issue, but one that is very unlikely to pervade the industry. It's based on the unique architecture of Apple storage, and sourcing of the chips needed for a dual chip 256GB model. An anomaly more than a pattern.

There are real issues that could be discussed, but ranting about trivial non issues, is just pointless.
 

KompuKare

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Soldered RAM is another non issue for laptops. RAM is Extremely durable, so won't be a reason to landfill a computer.

Also if soldered RAM is such a big issue for you, Lenovo has a LARGE amount of models with RAM slots. You don't have to focus on the thinnest models with soldered RAM and complain about the soldered RAM. Get a model with RAM slots, if you want RAM slots.

Here the molehill being made into a mountain is the base storage speed being only ~1.4GB/s. This is also a non perceptible, non issue, but one that is very unlikely to pervade the industry. It's based on the unique architecture of Apple storage, and sourcing of the chips needed for a dual chip 256GB model. An anomaly more than a pattern.

There are real issues that could be discussed, but ranting about trivial non issues, is just pointless.
Maybe you missed the word "now" in my post. X200 until X270 had SoDIMM slots. X280 and the new replacement X390 are all soldered. X200s were not the thinnest device a by a good bit. 12.5" is anyway far too small for me, I'm complaining about the trend.

And yes, RAM is unlikely to fail and soldered RAM should be even more reliable (due to not being handled), but the landfill comment is that eventually the 8GB models will become unusable whereas previously an upgrade would sort them.
 
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guidryp

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And yes, RAM is unlikely to fail and soldered RAM should be even more reliable (due to not being handled), but the landfill comment is that eventually the 8GB models will become unusable whereas previously an upgrade would sort them.
8GB won't become unusable. RAM requirements for basic computing aren't really changing that much over the years. Especially now that computers have SSDs.

I'm still using a ~14 year old PC with 6GB of RAM with a slow SATA SSD, and it works just fine for all basic computing needs (Web, Office, Media), and really It will probably still be fine for these activities for years to come.

A modern laptop with NVME SSD and 8GB will be fine, and if you were seriously concerned just buy it with 16GB.
 

Doug S

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Ah, but due Apple being so super profitable they set trends other companies follow.
The soldered DRAM trend which Apple started had got so bad that even business-class laptops like the ThinkPad X200 series now are all soldered. Thinkpads used to sell because they were serviceable, now they build them to go straight to landfill.
Obviously, Lenovo can make their own mistakes but Apple is the trend setter for locked hardware. And it's a trend most computer enthusiasts are not happy with.
Soldered memory isn't a trend companies followed because Apple did it. They followed the Apple trend of thin/light laptops and chose to solder RAM for the same reasons Apple did - because it is easier to make a thinner laptop if you don't have space for sockets.

PC OEMs don't care about "computer enthusiasts" any more than Apple does, unless they are a niche brand like Alienware that specifically caters to a small segment of buyers. Once OEMs started adding support software to their PCs that allowed them to track hardware changes like DIMMs being added or hard drives behing replaced they knew how few PCs/laptops have their hardware upgraded or replaced after purchase.

Average consumers don't feel comfortable opening their PC, nor would they even have any clue when a "slow PC" can be fixed by more RAM versus needing the OS reinstalled or a HDD replaced with an SSD. Rather than struggle to figure that out or pay money to Geek Squad with no guarantee they fix anything, most will just buy a new PC. If one is worried about landfilling PCs before their time they need to look at the reasons why the above so often happens, not at soldered RAM!

No one is looking at Apple saying "they are making so much money, I'm going to copy this specific way they make their laptops" as if that's the reason Apple is profitable. Soldering in RAM is unlikely to be an up front cost savings, because you have to manufacture and stock multiple SKUs of the mainboard to account for the various memory configurations you offer, being able to predict the sales mix of the various options in advance, rather than having one board and adding SO-DIMMS as needed. But it does reduce after purchase support costs, and that's something PC OEMs operating on razor thin margins (very much unlike Apple) REALLY care about!
 

poke01

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Ah, but due Apple being so super profitable they set trends other companies follow.
The soldered DRAM trend which Apple started had got so bad that even business-class laptops like the ThinkPad X200 series now are all soldered. Thinkpads used to sell because they were serviceable, now they build them to go straight to landfill.
Obviously, Lenovo can make their own mistakes but Apple is the trend setter for locked hardware. And it's a trend most computer enthusiasts are not happy with.
Here is a reason why Apple's RAM is soldered. It's unified memory at LPDDR5 at 6400. LPDDR5 only comes soldered. You would need 8 DIMM slots for the M1 Max Macbook to achieve the same pref at higher power consumption. Now you see why Apple does not use DIMMs.

Now the SSD should be socketed because there is no other reason other than profit.

Lenovo on the other hand has no reason other than power saving to solder RAM because it's design is not like Apple's.
 

jpiniero

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Oct 1, 2010
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But it does reduce after purchase support costs, and that's something PC OEMs operating on razor thin margins (very much unlike Apple) REALLY care about!
You mean preventing people from buying third party upgrades if they want more than the base model when they initially purchase the laptop.
 

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