Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Remind me. Does LPDDR5 double the bandwidth over the same speed (LP)DDR4?

I get 102GB/s with a 256bit bus and 3200mhz DDR4. The M1 Ultra would need to double the bandwidth 3 times - going to 512bit is only a single doubling. To get to 800GB/s would take a 512bit bus and either 12,500mhz memory or double the bandwidth memory running at 6250mhz
The M1 Max had a 512-but memory bus, so the M1 Ultra would have a 1024-but memory bus. I don't know offhand what speed the memory is running at, but it's just the low-power variant of DDR5.
 
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The Hardcard

Member
Oct 19, 2021
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Some are calling this chiplets, but these are full size dies, so it’s more old school MCM to me. What is unique to me is the simultaneous unifying a split CPU and a split GPU. Would be so much data transfer without the unified memory. Even so, I’ll bet there are workloads that make the temps high in that area.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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As always, the highest spec Mac Studio is double what I would consider fair price.
If you were using one for professional work the price is more than worth it. It looks like it can fully utilize the extra encoder blocks on both chips so it's eventually going to pay for itself.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
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As always, the highest spec Mac Studio is double what I would consider fair price.
I'm going to wait it out with my 2014 dual-core Haswell i5 Mac mini with 8 GB RAM. I'll likely get an M2 or M1 Pro 8-core Mac mini with 16 GB RAM depending what's released and how much it costs, come ?autumn. I bought the 2014 in 2021 for uber cheap only as a stop gap after my 2007 8-core 3.0 GHz Xeon Mac Pro started having issues.

Does anyone know if they plan to release a larger screen? I really wanted to see a 32".
BTW, I'll try to continue to use my 2.5K Apple 30" Cinema HD Display with the new M2/M1 Pro Mac mini. This old screen is a 2007 model that happens to have HDCP, so it supports 1080p DRM video. I also got it uber cheap back in 2020.

At this point I'm not going to get a smaller 27" Apple display, even if it's 5K. I have a 5K 27" i5 Retina iMac and IMO, 5K Retina is better suited to say 30" in terms of default font sizing for people like me with older eyes.
 

gdansk

Golden Member
Feb 8, 2011
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So the Mac Pro replacement, if it does exist, won't be M1 but rather M2?

Edit: nevermind, just saw Eug's guess of M1 Ultra Duo
 

JasonLD

Senior member
Aug 22, 2017
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So the Mac Pro replacement, if it does exist, won't be M1 but rather M2?

Edit: nevermind, just saw Eug's guess of M1 Ultra Duo
Apple's own marketing slide mentions M1 Ultra is the final member of the M1 family so I think there is a decent chance Mac Pro's SoC might not be based on M1.
 

repoman27

Senior member
Dec 17, 2018
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The M1 Max had a 512-but memory bus, so the M1 Ultra would have a 1024-but memory bus. I don't know offhand what speed the memory is running at, but it's just the low-power variant of DDR5.
It's LPDDR5-6400. And for the record, there are significant differences between DDR and LPDDR SDRAM technologies (DDR3L was just the low power variant of DDR3, but LPDDR3 was something else entirely). The standard bus width for LPDDR5 devices is only 16-bit. Apple is using eight 128-bit SDRAM packages, each of which combines eight 16-bit channels, and all of which share the same organic substrate as the silicon interposer for the two Jade C dies. This is a fairly exotic memory configuration no matter how you choose to look at it.
 

guidryp

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2006
2,653
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It's LPDDR5-6400. And for the record, there are significant differences between DDR and LPDDR SDRAM technologies (DDR3L was just the low power variant of DDR3, but LPDDR3 was something else entirely). The standard bus width for LPDDR5 devices is only 16-bit. Apple is using eight 128-bit SDRAM packages, each of which combines eight 16-bit channels, and all of which share the same organic substrate as the silicon interposer for the two Jade C dies. This is a fairly exotic memory configuration no matter how you choose to look at it.
It's not exotic at all. It's standard spec LPDDR5, which is used in laptops, and smartphones. They just use more chips and channels than smartphones or laptops.
 
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repoman27

Senior member
Dec 17, 2018
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Some are calling this chiplets, but these are full size dies, so it’s more old school MCM to me. What is unique to me is the simultaneous unifying a split CPU and a split GPU. Would be so much data transfer without the unified memory. Even so, I’ll bet there are workloads that make the temps high in that area.
Yeah, Ars Technica's take was, "It looks like Apple is using a chiplet-based design for the M1 Ultra, just like AMD is doing for many of its Ryzen chips."

Uh, these are two 425+ mm² fully functional monolithic dies made on TSMC N5 with zero attempt at disaggregation sharing a silicon interposer. That's not really anything like AMD's strategy.

Also, dat interconnect:
Apple’s innovative UltraFusion uses a silicon interposer that connects the chips across more than 10,000 signals, providing a massive 2.5TB/s of low latency, inter-processor bandwidth
So if they're counting four "signals" per lane (Tx+/-, Rx+/-), that's 2500 bi-directional lanes operating at 4 GT/s.
 
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repoman27

Senior member
Dec 17, 2018
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It's not exotic at all. It's standard spec LPDDR5, which is used in laptops, and smartphones. They just use more chips and channels than smartphones or laptops.
The SDRAM dies are commodity, but nothing else about it is. Point me to a supplier for 16 GB x128 LPDDR5-6400 modules or anyone else in the industry deploying them.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
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I think that a lot of people are going to miss the 27 inch iMac. The Studio even in it's base configuration with a non Apple monitor is going to be an expensive replacement.
 

StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,725
718
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$5K for the high end CPU model and that's with 64GB ram and only 1TB storage.

Don't get me wrong I'm sure it's very impressive (I have a M1 Max MB Pro myself). However you can also spec out an amazing PC for that price even with the GPU prices.

A quick look at Alienware (I know, I know it's just reference) you can get the following for $3.9K. That leaves you with a cool grand for a nice monitor.


  • 12th Gen Intel® Core™ i9-12900KF (30 MB cache, 16 cores, 24 threads, 3.20 to 5.20 GHz Turbo)
  • laptop

    Windows 11 Home, English
  • videocard

    AMD® Radeon™ RX 6900 XT, 16 GB GDDR6
  • memory

    64 GB, 2 x 32 GB, DDR5, 4400 MHz, Dual-channel; up to 128 GB
  • harddrive

    2 TB, M.2, PCIe NVMe, SSD
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,518
3,564
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Yeah, Ars Technica's take was, "It looks like Apple is using a chiplet-based design for the M1 Ultra, just like AMD is doing for many of its Ryzen chips."

Uh, these are two 425+ mm² fully functional monolithic dies made on TSMC N5 with zero attempt at disaggregation sharing a silicon interposer. That's not really anything like AMD's strategy.
This is more like Intel's strategy with Sapphire Rapids. Actually even Sapphire Rapids is more disaggregated.

Apple is basically doing this because they can't really get a twice bigger die.
 

poke01

Senior member
Mar 8, 2022
297
289
96
$5K for the high end CPU model and that's with 64GB ram and only 1TB storage.

Don't get me wrong I'm sure it's very impressive (I have a M1 Max MB Pro myself). However you can also spec out an amazing PC for that price even with the GPU prices.

A quick look at Alienware (I know, I know it's just reference) you can get the following for $3.9K. That leaves you with a cool grand for a nice monitor.


  • 12th Gen Intel® Core™ i9-12900KF (30 MB cache, 16 cores, 24 threads, 3.20 to 5.20 GHz Turbo)
Pretty sure 12900k and 6900xt is going to overheat in a case that is similar to Mac Studio. Funnily enough the Mac Studio is the around the same size as some CPU air coolers.

On the price I agree but Apple was never performance for dollar. The Mac Studio is a class of its own.
 

poke01

Senior member
Mar 8, 2022
297
289
96
This is more like Intel's strategy with Sapphire Rapids. Actually even Sapphire Rapids is more disaggregated.

Apple is basically doing this because they can't really get a twice bigger die.
Apple said the M1 Ultra is the last M1 chip. But Apple said Mac Pro is for another day, so who knows what they got planned. They cannot reach a bigger die because they reached the limits of TSMC 5nm.

What I am saying is we know Intel's roadmap but we don't Apples. What will M2, M3 and M1 bring in the higher end, we don't know.

We have an idea what raptor lake, meteor lake, arrow lake will bring but with Apple its not clear.
 

Muadib

Lifer
May 30, 2000
17,551
691
126
I'm going to wait it out with my 2014 dual-core Haswell i5 Mac mini with 8 GB RAM. I'll likely get an M2 or M1 Pro 8-core Mac mini with 16 GB RAM depending what's released and how much it costs, come ?autumn. I bought the 2014 in 2021 for uber cheap only as a stop gap after my 2007 8-core 3.0 GHz Xeon Mac Pro started having issues.


BTW, I'll try to continue to use my 2.5K Apple 30" Cinema HD Display with the new M2/M1 Pro Mac mini. This old screen is a 2007 model that happens to have HDCP, so it supports 1080p DRM video. I also got it uber cheap back in 2020.

At this point I'm not going to get a smaller 27" Apple display, even if it's 5K. I have a 5K 27" i5 Retina iMac and IMO, 5K Retina is better suited to say 30" in terms of default font sizing for people like me with older eyes.
I’m going to be right there with you, waiting. I would be happy with 30”, but not smaller than that.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,372
798
126
Apple said the M1 Ultra is the last M1 chip. But Apple said Mac Pro is for another day, so who knows what they got planned. They cannot reach a bigger die because they reached the limits of TSMC 5nm.
Mac Pros with M1 Ultra and 2 x M1 Ultra?
 

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