Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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[repoman27]

You have also presented ZERO Evidence. Just speculation. Your speculation isn't superior just because you think it is.

The ONLY cadence data-point we actually have is a 19 month gap between M1 and M2. That isn't indicative of an annual trend. Not even close.

That is the most significant fact. There is an argument for ~18 month schedule or maybe a variable one driven by Apples convenience, but NOT an annual one.

You've just become enamored with the idea of an annual release, and are rationalizing.

I gave you a table with every historical AX and M release to date on it. I gave you sales figures from three different sources. I gave you very reasonable estimates for design costs. I pointed out that Apple's microarchitectures and TSMC's manufacturing processes are consistently updated on an annual cadence. I also framed this in terms of the stated objectives of the Apple executives that actually make decisions regarding the hardware technologies and engineering teams' resources. None of that was speculation.

I also consistently said that I expected Apple to attempt an 18 month cadence for the entry level M series SoC. At the same time, I demonstrated that there is nothing preventing Apple from achieving a 12 month release schedule.

You seem to be attempting a proof by assertion here.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I gave you a table with every historical AX and M release to date on it. I gave you sales figures from three different sources. I gave you very reasonable estimates for design costs. I pointed out that Apple's microarchitectures and TSMC's manufacturing processes are consistently updated on an annual cadence. I also framed this in terms of the stated objectives of the Apple executives that actually make decisions regarding the hardware technologies and engineering teams' resources. None of that was speculation.

None of this was new. It's old info, it doesn't contradict my point and only reinforces it, as I had already commented earlier in the thread on the cadence of past Ax chips and M1 chips, before you posted about it.

At the same time, I demonstrated that there is nothing preventing Apple from achieving a 12 month release schedule.

Nothing theoretically makes it impossible, but you keep harping on on annual schedule in nearly every post, which is contrary to current limited M devices, and past AX chips, so while it's possible it's NOT likely. Nothing makes 3 year schedule impossible either, but it's not likely.

Maybe stick to the likely instead of the possible.

 

[repoman27]

Maybe stick to the likely instead of the possible.

Fine. The mean release cadence for both the AX series and AX series plus M series was less than 18 months. If you include the A12Z, 5 out of 8 releases were separated by less than 18 months. Unit sales and ASPs for M series devices are significantly higher than they were for the AX series. It is therefore likely that Apple will attempt to refresh the entry level M series SoCs at a rate of less than 18 months.

 

[Doug S]

Using Ax series for hints on M release schedule is foolhardy because Ax was used only for iPad, so its schedule was driven by the iPad schedule. Since Apple did not have a fixed yearly release schedule for iPad like iPhone has always had, Ax didn't get one either.

The release schedule for M will be driven by their release schedule for Mac. One can look back at the x86 Mac release schedule for hints but that's likewise foolhardy. Apple's schedule was to a large degree driven by what Intel could provide them. Since Apple was on more than a few occasions requesting special SKUs (i.e. custom packaging with minimal form factors when Air was new) to meet their needs, they had to work within the bounds of when Intel was willing to provide those - and importantly having sufficient quantity ready. They may have required Apple to commit to large order sizes to justify the custom work on their part, and Apple kept the models around however long it took until the commitment was fulfilled.

I don't think people appreciate the quantities Apple would take from a handful of bins compared to what Intel wanted to supply. For the higher volume Macs offered in only a few SKUs, Apple might need Intel to supply hundreds of thousands or more CPUs. In the Air, millions. PC OEMs mostly don't have that problem, the few that sell more PCs than Apple have many times more SKUs and more CPU options for each so the number of CPUs sold from a single bin is generally rather modest (except on the really low end) That allows Intel to fully bin and know they will sell everything, while Apple will pick a few choice bins clean. That's probably one overlooked reason for why Apple might sometimes keep the same model with the same CPU options for a very long time.

Now that they are in control of their CPUs, Apple no longer need deal with a manufacturer that wants to bin everything to the nth degree, or requires a bunch of convincing or large order size commitments. So they don't have to maintain the same sluggish release schedule with the Mac any longer. They still might, but they have freedom they did not have previously to trod another path.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Apple has no competition. Doesn't anyone know how fanboyish Apple users are? Apple has no reason to commit to a regular release schedule. They can introduce a new SKU/SoC whenever they want and rich Apple junkies will gulp it up like hungry wolf pups.

 

[moinmoin]

Using Ax series for hints on M release schedule is foolhardy because Ax was used only for iPad

Do you expect Apple to continue the Ax series? I think the M series replaced it, effectively extending the TAM of what was previously only used for iPads.

Personally I expect Apple to do the work on base M dies along with the A series since there should be plenty synergy to be had by doing so (M Pro/Max dies are a different more niche story). This doesn't mean Apple is updating every single M series using hardware at a yearly cadence. But where there's a receptive audience and growth to be had we can expect more regular refreshes than in the past.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Fine. The mean release cadence for both the AX series and AX series plus M series was less than 18 months. If you include the A12Z, 5 out of 8 releases were separated by less than 18 months. Unit sales and ASPs for M series devices are significantly higher than they were for the AX series. It is therefore likely that Apple will attempt to refresh the entry level M series SoCs at a rate of less than 18 months.

I would also expect similar variability as in the past. Sometimes the rate was about 2 years, and something even less than 1 year.

That's for the SoC, but for the Macs, I could really see models go 2 or 3 years between updates. Note that nothing was announced for the M1 Mac Mini. Seemingly continuing Apple's neglect of the Mini.

 

[Eug]

The MacBook Air, Apple's #1 best selling Mac, was announced just recently but won't actually be out until next month, after 20 months. The Mac mini at the earliest won't be updated until 23 months (fall 2022), but that could extend to as long as 30 months (spring 2023).

EDIT:

While the 13" M2 MacBook Air won't be available until July, Apple today said the 13" M2 MacBook Pro will be available on June 24, ten days from today. 13" M2 MBP pre-orders start this Friday, June 17.

13-inch MacBook Pro with M2 available to order starting Friday, June 17

On June 17, the 13-inch MacBook Pro with M2 will be available to order on apple.com, the Apple Store app, and through Apple Authorized Resellers.

www.apple.com

 

[repoman27]

The MacBook Air, Apple's #1 best selling Mac, was announced just recently but won't actually be out until next month, after 20 months. The Mac mini at the earliest won't be updated until 23 months (fall 2022), but that could extend to as long as 30 months (spring 2023).

Apple apparently managed to claw the release back into Q2. So it will be available by the end of this month, 19 months after availability of the first M1 MacBook Air.

As for Mac refreshes, those are gated by a very different set of constraints.

Johny Srouji's Hardware Technologies group started as 45 engineers in 2008 and now numbers in the thousands with offices in San Diego, Oregon, Texas, Florida, Massachusetts, Israel, Germany, and various locations in Asia.

The Hardware Engineering team working on Mac under John Ternus is probably several hundred strong.

Evans Hankey's Industrial Design team is comprised of less than two dozen designers working on all hardware and packaging for the entire company.

Once Apple has a Mac model designed specifically for an M series platform, the hardware engineering team should have no problem integrating and validating any updated SoCs targeting that platform. Availability / integration of other components and supply chain constraints would be the primary reasons for any delays. On the other hand, the industrial design team's bandwidth is extremely limited. They simply cannot refresh more than about 3 Mac models in any calendar year. Building out, retooling, or otherwise ramping manufacturing capability for a new design can also present significant challenges and impact the release schedule.

 

[Eug]

^^^ That's an awful lot of handwaving. The bottom line is so far there is no evidence Apple is targeting a yearly refresh.

Meanwhile, Apple still doesn't even have the first Apple Silicon Mac Pro out yet.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Johny Srouji's Hardware Technologies group started as 45 engineers in 2008 and now numbers in the thousands with offices in San Diego, Oregon, Texas, Florida, Massachusetts, Israel, Germany, and various locations in Asia.

The Hardware Engineering team working on Mac under John Ternus is probably several hundred strong.

Evans Hankey's Industrial Design team is comprised of less than two dozen designers working on all hardware and packaging for the entire company.

Do you have contact with an Apple insider? That's a lot of classified information.

 

[repoman27]

^^^ That's an awful lot of handwaving. The bottom line is so far there is no evidence Apple is targeting a yearly refresh.

Meanwhile, Apple still doesn't even have the first Apple Silicon Mac Pro out yet.

Zero handwaving, and absolutely zero mention of Apple targeting a yearly refresh. I'm just providing information here.

Do you have contact with an Apple insider? That's a lot of classified information.

Nah, it's all public. Most of it comes out when Apple makes someone SVP. They trot them out in front of the press to do some interviews and background pieces.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Johny Srouji's Hardware Technologies group started as 45 engineers in 2008 and now numbers in the thousands with offices in San Diego, Oregon, Texas, Florida, Massachusetts, Israel, Germany, and various locations in Asia.

And they are are losing top chip design talent with regularity. The Nuvia, and Rivos groups being most prominent, but they also lost top people to Intel, Microsoft.

It will be interesting to see if/when this starts being a drag on the SoC group.

 

[Doug S]

Apple has no competition. Doesn't anyone know how fanboyish Apple users are? Apple has no reason to commit to a regular release schedule. They can introduce a new SKU/SoC whenever they want and rich Apple junkies will gulp it up like hungry wolf pups.

If they listened to you they'd just shut down their design group and stick with A16 forever for the iPhone and M2 for the Mac. Why upgrade ever, if people are just "fanboys" and will keep buying no matter what

 

[igor_kavinski]

Why upgrade ever, if people are just "fanboys" and will keep buying no matter what

"Apple users" are fanboys, not normal people. Majority don't want to buy into a walled garden and restrict themselves to Apple's infamous RDF. Apple can afford to be complacent. Why release something merely after a year and subject their engineering teams to undue stress? They can just take their time and release at a somewhat relaxed pace of 18-20 months. Their users are not going anywhere and will patiently wait for the next big revolution in Apple silicon because what else are they gonna do? There is no one out there that can threaten Apple with a superior product because no one has such an extreme control over their hardware/software ecosystem.

Only Apple can change their entire instruction set and people hardly complain. I bet there are tons of users using both Intel and Apple silicon Macs because some of their important software still isn't working correctly with M1/M2. Only fanboys patiently dump so much money into their favorite money grubbing corporation. When Windows users get mad, they turn to Linux. Apple users seem to never get upset at whatever Apple decides to put them through. So, to conclude, I don't think Apple has any incentive or reason to accelerate their release schedule.

 

[Doug S]

"Apple users" are fanboys, not normal people.

Thanks for letting me know I can ignore everything you write from now on as hopelessly ignorant.

 

[Muadib]

"Apple users" are fanboys, not normal people. Majority don't want to buy into a walled garden and restrict themselves to Apple's infamous RDF. Apple can afford to be complacent. Why release something merely after a year and subject their engineering teams to undue stress? They can just take their time and release at a somewhat relaxed pace of 18-20 months. Their users are not going anywhere and will patiently wait for the next big revolution in Apple silicon because what else are they gonna do? There is no one out there that can threaten Apple with a superior product because no one has such an extreme control over their hardware/software ecosystem.

Only Apple can change their entire instruction set and people hardly complain. I bet there are tons of users using both Intel and Apple silicon Macs because some of their important software still isn't working correctly with M1/M2. Only fanboys patiently dump so much money into their favorite money grubbing corporation. When Windows users get mad, they turn to Linux. Apple users seem to never get upset at whatever Apple decides to put them through. So, to conclude, I don't think Apple has any incentive or reason to accelerate their release schedule.

Sorry, but first quarter results say otherwise. Apple led in pc and tablet sales for first quarter 2022 taking first place from Lenovo. I gotta think that it's more than just fanboys to achieve such a result.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I gotta think that it's more than just fanboys to achieve such a result.

They are expanding their zombiebase. I know people who perpetually pay a monthly installment to own the latest iPhone. They are zombies. Mine is an Alcatel phone on Android 8. It does whatever I need and I can use the money saved for better things. Until Apple halves their prices, I don't see myself owning an Apple device. I don't have more money than sense.

 

[Muadib]

They are expanding their zombiebase. I know people who perpetually pay a monthly installment to own the latest iPhone. They are zombies. Mine is an Alcatel phone on Android 8. It does whatever I need and I can use the money saved for better things. Until Apple halves their prices, I don't see myself owning an Apple device. I don't have more money than sense.

Hey watch it, I pay a monthly installment on three iphones! Wanna know why? There is no interest!! How can you say no to that?!?

 

[Ajay]

They are expanding their zombiebase. I know people who perpetually pay a monthly installment to own the latest iPhone. They are zombies. Mine is an Alcatel phone on Android 8. It does whatever I need and I can use the money saved for better things. Until Apple halves their prices, I don't see myself owning an Apple device. I don't have more money than sense.

OMG, stop. There are some rabid apple fans out there, just as there are for Windows, Linux, AMD, Intel, Nvidia, etc.
The bulk of buyers, like professionals and corporations, buy them because they find them productive for their workflows.

 

[JasonLD]

They are expanding their zombiebase. I know people who perpetually pay a monthly installment to own the latest iPhone. They are zombies. Mine is an Alcatel phone on Android 8. It does whatever I need and I can use the money saved for better things. Until Apple halves their prices, I don't see myself owning an Apple device. I don't have more money than sense.

It is ok to not to own Apple device if you think they are not worth the price. But I will never understand the attitude of elevating yourself into higher status just to look down on people who actually believes they are worth the money and happy paying those prices.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I have nothing against professionals, creative or otherwise. What I find really annoying is a lot of people dumping money on Macs for doing mundane stuff like browsing or watching movies and because walking around or being seen with a Macbook makes them feel more hip or refined. These are the same people responsible for my inability to find a used M1 laptop for $600 where I live. I mean, stop treating your Macbook like it's frickin' made of gold. It's just a machine. These zombies will fill the coffers of a megacorporation with their excess money but they refuse to sell their old Macbooks for any reasonable price despite using it for two years or more.

 

[ashFTW]

I have nothing against professionals, creative or otherwise. What I find really annoying is a lot of people dumping money on Macs for doing mundane stuff like browsing or watching movies and because walking around or being seen with a Macbook makes them feel more hip or refined. These are the same people responsible for my inability to find a used M1 laptop for $600 where I live. I mean, stop treating your Macbook like it's frickin' made of gold. It's just a machine. These zombies will fill the coffers of a megacorporation with their excess money but they refuse to sell their old Macbooks for any reasonable price despite using it for two years or more.

LOL. All this disdain for  and it’s user base, and you are still pining away for a M1 Mac

 

[moinmoin]

They are expanding their zombiebase.

Windows users are the way bigger and more worrying "zombiebase" out there, most of them aren't even fans!

 

[Eug]

I have nothing against professionals, creative or otherwise. What I find really annoying is a lot of people dumping money on Macs for doing mundane stuff like browsing or watching movies and because walking around or being seen with a Macbook makes them feel more hip or refined. These are the same people responsible for my inability to find a used M1 laptop for $600 where I live. I mean, stop treating your Macbook like it's frickin' made of gold. It's just a machine. These zombies will fill the coffers of a megacorporation with their excess money but they refuse to sell their old Macbooks for any reasonable price despite using it for two years or more.

Hmmm... I'm going to assume you're not joking. So, you're complaining because:

1) You've convinced yourself that most non-pros buy Macs just to be seen.
2) You're annoyed because M1 Macs retain their value too well.

You might want to try to look at this from a different perspective. There are actually a lot of people out there who prefer to buy Macs because of the OS, the ecosystem, the build quality, etc. All of these aspects have their own problems, but the combination of these things, esp. for an iPad or iPhone owner, makes for a strong reason for even non-pros to buy, which in turn may be a big reason for the good resale value for consumer Macs.

Ironically, a lot of the pro Macs are not retaining their value well. The resale values of the high end Intel Mac Pros are in the toilet (which ultimately led to Marques Brownlee trading in his $40000+ Mac Pro for an Apple Store credit of less than $5000, after getting no biters on the used market). In addition, the Intel MacBook Pros aren't doing so well either because the improved performance, massively improved battery life, improved keyboards, sometimes improved port options, and decreased fan noise of the M series Macs. The fear that the Intel Macs are going to be deprecated sooner rather than later doesn't help either.