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Apple pulls out of India

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dchakrab

Senior member
Apr 25, 2001
493
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0
Braznor, no, he is correct.

*Most* Indians are not taught to be creative, in the sense that he is describing. There is a difference between writing elegant code by the book and writing inspired code that changes the world. Any clown can write PHP, but to conceive of a content management system (Deanspace) that revolutionizes open source content management is another. Everyone can code Javascript, but to use AJAX to build the first online word processor requires something other than by-the-book coding. There are people working right now to develop wireless internet technologies that enable villages in India to use the internet in startling new ways...and they're not Indians. Arun Mehta is a professor from an Indian university who attended the Wireless Summit in St. Charles recently, and he said to me several times that what is needed is intelligent, creative geeks to work for real change in India, because India has a shortage of these people. He uses the word geek and so it confuses people, because we think of the Indian IT industry, but he's right...what he means is people who have the creativity and vision to use the tools at their disposal to build something revolutionary, instead of waiting for the US to pass them another great invention or innovation to train themselves in. And he's right in saying that these individuals are predominantly white males from Western Europe and N. America. The liberal arts education system doesn't result in well-rounded idiots...it results in well-rounded individuals, some of whom may be idiots, but many of whom are able to create, and innovate. Website projects in the US frequently ask for someone with solid coding skills, a great eye for the aesthetics of design, and great writing skills (especially marketing copy). Where would you find that blend in India? When was the last time you saw an incredible design for a website (design = layout, typography, stunning visuals, great use of color and space, etc...) from an Indian developer? It's rare.

The great tragedy of American education is that we are now alienating many Americans from this system of education, forcing them to resort to vocational training (Mc-Devry, if anything, probably offered through Walmart soon) or no training at all. And then we are wondering why an increasing amount of innovation is no longer happening in the US.

Attracting the best and the brightest from countries like India...well, that happened for good reason. The US had the best universities, the best business schools, the best law schools. Where else would you go for a top-class education? And an incredibly strong economy awaited you afterwards. Now, the economy is crushed, and losing ground fast, while we're increasingly giving up our rights to the telecommunications infrastructure and education campaigns that are this country's only hope for reversing this state of affairs.

Braznor: A troll's a troll. If you put an American spin on it, they'll put an anti-American spin on it back at you (and so will others reading the thread...I assumed you were anti-American when I first read your posts). Trolling back at a troll rarely works.

I have a decent idea of how helpdesk work goes...been there, done that. Scripted or not, it's still heavily dependent on being able to communicate effectively. Americans simply aren't great at foreign accents, which is why call centers in India are increasingly taught to fake an American accent (terribly) and read up on the weather in NY and sports scores so they can fake it if asked. They even have American pseudonyms. Yes, I have friends who work in call centers back in India...I know how it works. In the end, Americans shouldn't be worried about them...we should worried about high-end IT being outsourced, and about the reverse brain drain that is a. leeching this country of the brilliant immigrants we are dependent on and b. bringing us less qualified, less inspired, and less motivated immigrants instead.

I couldn't care less that a community lost its telemarketing jobs to outsourcing...as long as I could take those jobless telemarketers, give them the right training, and employ them all as Tier II network support engineers.

Dave.
 

Skanderberg

Member
May 16, 2006
147
0
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: raildogg
How is this helping anybody? Don't you understand that companies go to places not because they like those places, but because they can save a bit of money? If Apple is doing this for a symbolic reason, then too bad for them. It won't win them any more fans.
Yeah, that is a great strategy. Save some money and lose customers because of it. Dell USED to be renowned for their support. I'd now rank them close to the bottom. When I call my bank (BoA), it is EXTREMELY refreshing to hear someone from the US on the phone. That's a BIG plus I give to the bank. I commend Apple for pulling out and hope the rest of the companies do the same.
There may be communication problems at Dell, that much I admit. But we are much better when it comes to actually solving problems. Dell is not a idiot to keep shooting itself in the foot.
I will never buy anything from Dell ever again. They lost my business forever thanks to the worst customer service experience that I ever had. I spoke to ten different representatives in (at least) four different departments over the course of two days trying to figure out how they messed up my order. Every department simply apologized for the inconvenience and told me that they could not help me and referred me to a different department. Three times I was given a number to call only to find out that the number was disconnected or no longer in service. In the end I bought an Acer monitor with the same size and resolution for $140 less. I have been very happy with my Acer monitor.

So their customer serves peeps in India cost less than Americans. It didn't earn them any business. It just cost them whatever the toll free calls (more than three hours worth) plus wages for the call center employees. Doesn't sound like a good business decision to me.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Skanderberg
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: raildogg
How is this helping anybody? Don't you understand that companies go to places not because they like those places, but because they can save a bit of money? If Apple is doing this for a symbolic reason, then too bad for them. It won't win them any more fans.
Yeah, that is a great strategy. Save some money and lose customers because of it. Dell USED to be renowned for their support. I'd now rank them close to the bottom. When I call my bank (BoA), it is EXTREMELY refreshing to hear someone from the US on the phone. That's a BIG plus I give to the bank. I commend Apple for pulling out and hope the rest of the companies do the same.
There may be communication problems at Dell, that much I admit. But we are much better when it comes to actually solving problems. Dell is not a idiot to keep shooting itself in the foot.
I will never buy anything from Dell ever again. They lost my business forever thanks to the worst customer service experience that I ever had. I spoke to ten different representatives in (at least) four different departments over the course of two days trying to figure out how they messed up my order. Every department simply apologized for the inconvenience and told me that they could not help me and referred me to a different department. Three times I was given a number to call only to find out that the number was disconnected or no longer in service. In the end I bought an Acer monitor with the same size and resolution for $140 less. I have been very happy with my Acer monitor.

So their customer serves peeps in India cost less than Americans. It didn't earn them any business. It just cost them whatever the toll free calls (more than three hours worth) plus wages for the call center employees. Doesn't sound like a good business decision to me.


Reminds me of Call Center
 

firewall

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2001
2,099
0
0
Originally posted by: DurocShark
Thanks mods for putting this in P&N. When this thread went from a lighthearted "<nelson> Haw Haw! </nelson>" to a trollfest I asked to have it put into P&N
Huh? Just saw it. Braznor got his wish by crapping the thread.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,820
36
91
Originally posted by: asadasif
Originally posted by: DurocShark
Thanks mods for putting this in P&N. When this thread went from a lighthearted "<nelson> Haw Haw! </nelson>" to a trollfest I asked to have it put into P&N
Huh? Just saw it. Braznor got his wish by crapping the thread.

This thread was flamebait to begin with.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,085
493
126
No surprise, Dell has been in hot water over their support in India. For corp accounts they have moved it back into the states.

Outsourcing isnt always ideal and while code monkeys are cheap, they arent that cheap if they cant understand what you want done and a revenue generating product is delayed a few months because of it.

 

firewall

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2001
2,099
0
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: asadasif
Originally posted by: DurocShark
Thanks mods for putting this in P&N. When this thread went from a lighthearted "<nelson> Haw Haw! </nelson>" to a trollfest I asked to have it put into P&N
Huh? Just saw it. Braznor got his wish by crapping the thread.

This thread was flamebait to begin with.
You could have helped reduce the flamebait nature of the thread, if you are so inclined to call it, by posting your points/arguments in a proper precise manner. You in effect have taken the attitude that 'Fvck the world, my opinion is best and it should be forced on the world' which is the wrong approach.

I, personally, think that outsourcing has it's merits and pitfalls. However, the administration of such companies must keep a close eye on the quality control and customer satisfation from such outsourcing. Apple did that and found outsourcing to India short of their requirement. I don't blame them if they see it that way from an economic or customer satisfaction point of view. They can go look someplace else which suits them better. In the end, it is their decision to make.

Apart from that, Dave (Indian) got it all explained pretty nicely (which you could have done yourself if you hadn't trolled in this thread). You can learn from him.
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
The thread is a good combination of first world arrogance and hypocricy when it comes to things which matters. Outsourcing is not going to go away and if you happen to stop it, other asian companies will destroy your companies with cost-cutting, until everything is equalized.

The only way you can stop outsourcing is stop globalization. And if that happens, America's underbelly would be kicked the hardest.
Despite living IN India, there appears to be quite a lot about globalization and outsourcing that you really don't know.

Besides "Offshoring", there is also "green-shoring", "age-shoring", and a host of other strategies that can put call centers into the US, Canada, or Ireland nearly as cheaply as they can be put into India, espcecially when the cost of telelcomms is figured in. Green-shoring is placing a call center in a very rural site in North-America, which usually has a very high rate of unemployment, and very low cost of living. Age-shoring is using staff of retirees that can do the work, sometimes part-time, to supplement their retirement savings. And there are others...

The fundamental fact is the waves of call centers erected in India have sucked dry the talented pool of English speakers - successive waves of call centers have been forced to rely upon trying to train Indians to speak more Westernized English, or just suffering through with poorer English-language skills. As a result, the earlier call centers DID have, on average, better skilled English-speakers...and the trend has been downward ever since.

I've set up offshore operations in India, and I have met many wonderful people there. Talented, well-educated, moral, and resourceful. But we do have to recognize that India only has a finite supply of Western-ized English speakers, and realize that the well is running dry - especially as there are only a few good cities in which to erect call centers in India that have low enough telecomms costs and sufficient infrastructure.

Future Shock
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

So you like paying for India Compnaies masquarading as an American Company?

You're paying for Indian kids schooling as well as American kids schooling.

You're essentially paying for the demise of America for the sake of the bottom line for a few Corporate Thugs at the top. Congrats.
You are paying for nobody.

The Americans pay indians because they get the job done more efficiently and they pay taxes to the American govt as good businesses, simple.

As for the rest of your comment, it not deserve any replies.
Braznor,
Once again, you are not portraying the true picture of offshore corporations. A great, great many of them DO NOT PAY U.S. TAXES. They set up Indian subisidaries, have the Indian subsidiary charge the US corporation for all work performed (usually at a very high rate), and the US corporation does not show a profit, only a loss. All of the PROFIT is then booked by the Indian subsidiary, which is subject to Indian taxation - but these companies usually get huge tax breaks from the Indian government, so they in effect pay NO TAX. And for those that DO pay taxes, as Dave indicates, they DO pay it to the Indian government.

This also happens with Japanese auto manufacturers and others multinational corporations - this is nothing new. But to Dave's points, it DOES result in a huge loss of tax income for the US government, who then must raise that money otherwise...such as taxing US-sourced businesses higher, and by raising income tax rates on American citizens.

Please go to business school and learn about these things before you write so vociferously about them, or read a few more dozen good business books.

Future Shock
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: Eeezee
I hate outsourced tech support and the like. Seriously, in my experience the people on the phone are nowhere near qualified to be doing tech support. I called Motorola a few times and never found a guy that could help me troubleshoot a modem I had, one guy even transferred me to a billing representative :confused: Eventually I just did it myself using internet forums

I appreciate American companies hiring Americans. If the people in India want to move here and become Americans, then so be it. They've worked hard enough to learn English and at least some of them learn the technical skill required (my experience may have been a fluke), so it would be cool if they could move here and earn the same as an American, so long as they meet qualifications.
My view is that outsourcing as a phenomenon will not have any great impact upon global business. The current fear over outsourcing is as paranoid as when Americans accused the Japanese car companies of destroying their car industry.
I agree, the American car companies are destroying themselves just fine by not listening to the market but rather trying to define it against what people are looking for. They are trying to tell people what they want rather than listening to what people are saying they want. In the same way, companies who continue to outsource in areas where consumers are clearly stating that they do not like it will also destroy themselves if they continue to bull-headedly tell the market what it wants.
 

dchakrab

Senior member
Apr 25, 2001
493
0
0
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Despite living IN India, there appears to be quite a lot about globalization and outsourcing that you really don't know.

Besides "Offshoring", there is also "green-shoring", "age-shoring", and a host of other strategies that can put call centers into the US, Canada, or Ireland nearly as cheaply as they can be put into India, espcecially when the cost of telelcomms is figured in. Green-shoring is placing a call center in a very rural site in North-America, which usually has a very high rate of unemployment, and very low cost of living. Age-shoring is using staff of retirees that can do the work, sometimes part-time, to supplement their retirement savings. And there are others...

The fundamental fact is the waves of call centers erected in India have sucked dry the talented pool of English speakers - successive waves of call centers have been forced to rely upon trying to train Indians to speak more Westernized English, or just suffering through with poorer English-language skills. As a result, the earlier call centers DID have, on average, better skilled English-speakers...and the trend has been downward ever since.

I've set up offshore operations in India, and I have met many wonderful people there. Talented, well-educated, moral, and resourceful. But we do have to recognize that India only has a finite supply of Western-ized English speakers, and realize that the well is running dry - especially as there are only a few good cities in which to erect call centers in India that have low enough telecomms costs and sufficient infrastructure.

Future Shock
Good points. I'll add that in India, companies frequently don't pay taxes, or don't declare the full extent of their operations on their taxes...it's standard business practice. And yes, I know there are many that don't do this, but I also have extensive business contacts and family at very high levels of the Indian government, so I know the general trend.

This lends weight to my thinking that this is more an issue of competitiveness in quality rather than competitiveness in cost. Why would I greenshore a call center? Because outsourcing it isn't as good for business, either because of the accent, the quality of service provided, or the cost.

However, the critical question is: do we want to focus this discussion on the call center industry, or on IT outsourcing? We can fight call center outsourcing by making sure our population speaks English (if you'd been to an urban Chicago high school or community college, you'd know this was intended to be only half funny). But if we want to reverse the trend of higher end outsourcing, we need to take a long hard look at the educational opportunities available, or unavailable, to the currently unemployed and unemployable.

That's the real meat of the problem. And we're not addressing it, because we'll complain like hell when our Dell tech support person has an accent but we won't think twice about using Microsoft software developed in India.

I think the economy will continue to suffer if we fight to bring all our call center jobs back, and lose out on all higher end development work, especially with the growing telecom / internet industries.

Dave.
 

dchakrab

Senior member
Apr 25, 2001
493
0
0
Apple just caught some limelight for sweatshop practices:

Apple's Sweatshops In China

...from Wired News.

Based on this, Indians might want to breath a sigh of relief at this point that Apple did decide to take their production elsewhere.

Similarly, anyone giving Apple brownie points for not outsourcing, to say that this would be a good time to reconsider is an understatement.

Dave.
 

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