apple, msft, rim and sony win nortel patent bid

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Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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A breakdown of who got what:

http://www.cringely.com/2011/07/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/

The story everyone seems to be missing here is who gets what in this consortium deal? Most journalists and bloggers seem to assume the winners will all share equally in the IP spoils. But I have people who know people and the word I am hearing it that’s not the way the consortium works at all.
Some consortium members get patents, some get royalties, and some just get freedom from having to pay royalties.
Notice Nokia isn’t in the consortium? The Finnish company is apparently covered by Microsoft, tying Nokia even more firmly to Windows Phone.
Here’s the consortium participation as I understand it. RIM and Ericsson together put up $1.1 billion with Ericsson getting a fully paid-up license to the portfolio while RIM, as a Canadian company like Nortel, gets a paid-up license plus possibly some carry forward operating losses from Nortel, which has plenty of such losses to spare. For RIM the deal might actually have a net zero cost after tax savings, which the Canadian business press hasn’t yet figured out.
Microsoft and Sony put up another $1 billion.
There is a reportedly a side deal for about $400 million with EMC that has the storage company walking with sole ownership of an unspecified subset of the Nortel patents.
Finally Apple put up $2 billion for outright ownership of Nortel’s Long Term Evolution (4G) patents as well as another package of patents supposedly intended to hobble Android.
At the end of the day this deal isn’t about royalties. It is about trying to kill Android.
 
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akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
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If I recall correctly, many of these patents mostly pertain to LTE and other wireless network technologies. RIM, Apple, and Sony probably wanted to get in on the action to avoid having to pay licensing fees since they all manufacture hardware. I'm not entirely too certain why Microsoft wanted to get involved, unless they too are planning on using those technologies in some of their future products.

It's simple why MS and Google wants those patents. They license mobile OS's and anyone who licenses their mobile OS gets a "guarantee" by MS or Google that they'll help them out if someone sues them. Kinda like Apple suing HTC. If Google had those patents, they'd lean on Apple and make HTC's problems go away.

Since it's a consortium, I imagine that it would be fairly difficult for any one member to use the patents to file a lawsuit against someone. It's more likely that they'll be used defensively by the various members. It's also unlikely that other companies will be sued for violation of these patents as they'll most likely be licensing them as the Nortel patents only comprise part of the total LTE patent pool.
Likely they're all equally sharing the rights to the bought patents. That doesn't give them protection from any new patents however. Like Apple's recently granted multi-touch patents for instance.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Curious, assuming Cringely is correct of course.

I also wonder if Apple will soon begin designing their own baseband chips or attempting to build it in to their custom SoCs. If the own enough of the patents to do so, this could be a worthwhile cost saver for them.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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Microsoft already gets paid licensing fees by manufacturers that install Android, looks like the goal here is to make it more difficult and expensive for manufacturers to use Android


Edit: Damn, looks like Google may have screwed the pooch here...


Os, sell products of their own. Those who actually have products on the market would have to think (at least) twice before attacking Android if they might need access to some of Google's patents.

Cross-licenses are the way most patent disputes between large companies are resolved. If there is parity in terms of how much each party needs the other company's patents, the deal may be done without money changing hands. In most cases, however, one company will have the upper hand and make a payment to compensate for the difference in portfolio value. Still, such payments tend to be much lower than the cost incurred by a "have-not" who needs a license from a powerhouse. In a price-sensitive, highly competitive market such as smartphones, the cost of patent licensing is eminently important.

No matter how influential Google may be on the World Wide Web, its patents apparently didn't deter Oracle from suing. I'm sure Oracle took a close look at Google's portfolio and determined that there was no risk of a serious counterstrike, or of any at all. If you look at my visualizations of other smartphone patent disputes involving major players on both sides (Apple vs. Nokia, Apple vs. Android, Microsoft vs. Motorola), you can see how they escalate and involve ever larger numbers of patents. By contrast, Oracle still doesn't face any infringement allegations.

If Google could countersue, it might already have a favorable settlement with Oracle in its hands. Since it can't, it will either have to fend off all seven patents asserted by Oracle (plus any others that Oracle could assert in a second suit), in each case by taking the patent down or proving that there's no infringement, or it will have to come up with some theory that it was entitled to a license of some sort. Otherwise, Oracle will prevail and the vast majority of Android applications would presumably have to be rewritten. So chances are this will cost Google (and possibly the Android ecosystem at large) dearly.

Even the 576 patents Google owns are a significant number and set it apart from many others who have even less. But when you're competing in a highly litigious environment in which a diversity of patents is required to build a solid product, that's too little. In Google's case, it's not just weakness in numbers. There's also a lack of diversification. I've looked at a random sample of Google patents, and most of them relate either directly to search or to closely related technologies such as location-based services.

Such a narrowly focused portfolio just can't frighten players like Apple, Microsoft or Oracle, all of whom innovate in a variety of fields of technology. I'm not saying that Google isn't innovative. It's just not innovative in the way that gets rewarded by the patent system with a sizable and diversified portfolio.

Google leaves its partners in the lurch

It's quite possible that even some device makers who adopted Android overrated Google's ability to defend Android against patent threats. Now they see that many patent holders seek royalty payments from makers of Android-based devices, and roughly a dozen have already gone to court with infringement allegations directed at Android.

Google probably doesn't have any contractual obligations. It puts out Android on open source terms. If things work out well, Google reaps most of the rewards. If things go wrong, others bear the brunt of the patent litigation (only three of the twelve suits I listed name Google among the defendants).

Obviously, those device makers knew all along that Google could benefit from Android, but they felt they could still benefit from selling the hardware. Patent issues may turn Android-based devices into an unprofitable business at some point, regardless of consumer demand, and at that point it will be hard for anyone other than Google to make any money with Android.

I also think that Sony vs. LG may only be the first of a number of suits in which one maker of an Android-based device tries to get rid of a competitor. I don't want to name names but I could see some Android device makers trying the same kind of cannibalization.

The Android patent situation would definitely be different -- fundamentally different -- if Google had a stronger portfolio and could show some authority. At a rate of a couple hundred new patents per year, and without much diversification, Google won't become a major force in this game anytime soon.

The patent weakness I described is also going to be a serious problem for Google's WebM codec. That's a slightly different but related subject that I've covered separately and plan to address again.

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/01/google-is-patently-too-weak-to-protect.html
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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I wonder if Google is throwing their partners under the bus a little here. For the most part they haven't gotten the brunt of the litigation - their partners have, so they'd be buying patents to to protect Moto and co, which apparently they have little interest in doing.

If HTC and Moto thought they were being thrown under a bus, they should have joined a consortium and added some money to Google's bid.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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If HTC and Moto thought they were being thrown under a bus, they should have joined a consortium and added some money to Google's bid.

They weren't approved bidders. I don't think the sale went anything like Google anticipated, and the reason they threw in those crazy bids is that they realized they were screwed.

HTC has some cash to spend, Moto didn't.
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
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If Android died I'd just get a WM7 phone, I like my EVO a lot but I wouldn't miss Android a bit if in a few years it was dead. I had a WM6.1 phone, went to an iPhone and now to Android. A phone's a phone to me so let it die.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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They weren't approved bidders. I don't think the sale went anything like Google anticipated, and the reason they threw in those crazy bids is that they realized they were screwed.

HTC has some cash to spend, Moto didn't.

I think they had the top price they were willing to pay in mind. Doesn't really matter what the bids in between were. HTC and MOT didn't try to get approved.
They are making money of Android, they should have kicked some of it back to keep the gravy train rolling. Anyways I am surprised they were willing to spend $4B
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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I think they had the top price they were willing to pay in mind. Doesn't really matter what the bids in between were. HTC and MOT didn't try to get approved.
They are making money of Android, they should have kicked some of it back to keep the gravy train rolling. Anyways I am surprised they were willing to spend $4B

Moto is only worth about 4B, HTC has more, but they're always sort of off in left field not paying attention to stuff like this.

I've read a couple places that Google isn't committed to Android, we may see some very interesting changes as a result of this auction, also, when you consider the whole industry is moving to LTE, those patents are estimated to be worth 10-15B over the next 10 years or so...

Oracle's case is still going, and they're likely going to win.

The saying goes, "The chicken is involved in breakfast, the pig is committed..."
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
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as people said apple is scared of competition and just wants to sue it out of existence

You DO realize that Apple, in the mobile sector, has been sued just as much if not more than it has sued and that the only case that can be argued as Apple "suing the competition out of existence" would be their suit against HTC.

I'm not saying Apple wouldn't sue their exclusively held patents like a club. I'm sure they will. But Apple management would be fools if they didn't use every tool legally available to hinder the competition and help it make another buck. Why do you think Nokia sued Apple when it didn't get the price it wanted to license certain patents to Apple? Why do you think HTC is paying for IP licenses on Android handsets to Microsoft?
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
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You DO realize that Apple, in the mobile sector, has been sued just as much if not more than it has sued and that the only case that can be argued as Apple "suing the competition out of existence" would be their suit against HTC.

I'm not saying Apple wouldn't sue their exclusively held patents like a club. I'm sure they will. But Apple management would be fools if they didn't use every tool legally available to hinder the competition and help it make another buck. Why do you think Nokia sued Apple when it didn't get the price it wanted to license certain patents to Apple? Why do you think HTC is paying for IP licenses on Android handsets to Microsoft?

Apple sued Woolworth's Australian Grocery Store over this:

apple-woolworths1.jpg


Apple sued Victoria School of Business and Technology in Canada over this:

vsbt-apple-logo-battle,A-S-162388-1.jpg


Apple sued New York City's GreeNYC over this:

apples.jpg


Apple is as sue happy as any other company out there. Like I've said, they're the new Microsoft. Trying to exert their dominance over smaller companies and using their might to crush smaller competition. If Microsoft gets in trouble over it, Apple needs to as well.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I've been going over the actual Nortel patents for a while now, can someone please explain what any of these patents have to do with any OS?

I see a lot of patents that could be leveraged against Qualcomm, nVidia and Samsung on the handset side and AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and TMo on the network side, nothing at all that could target Google. Even amongst those patents that could be leveraged, it requires a particular type of rollout that is going to cost billions of dollars to implement and at this point in time the largest single force pushing that rollout is Android based handsets(and none of the rollout is being done by the party that won the bids). In other words, if the consortium were to play hardball, they could watch almost the entire portfolio become close to worthless.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've spent quite a bit of time reviewing their patents, I'm seeing zero threat to any piece of software.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
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If Android died I'd just get a WM7 phone, I like my EVO a lot but I wouldn't miss Android a bit if in a few years it was dead. I had a WM6.1 phone, went to an iPhone and now to Android. A phone's a phone to me so let it die.

You don't see a problem with killing innovation?
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
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Well we'll have to see if the courts even uphold y this consortium bid anyway
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
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You don't see a problem with killing innovation?

Nope because something else will just come along and take it's place, that's the beautiful thing about technology. When iOS came out there was nothing even close to it, I had a WM6 device and it didn't compare on any level. If Android died tomorrow, iOS & WM7 would both still flourish and add new features.