Apple comeback? How does a G4 @733MHz (or dual 533) compare to Tbird?

Leo V

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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Look at what Apple is pulling out of their sleeves. Particularly, check out their new PowerMac lineup. It seems they've made some big strides forward, enough to challenge the power of PC's once again.

First, the disclaimer: I'm talking exclusively about their hardware. I would never use MacOS, but it's possible to install LinuxPPC on these machines.

Here is what I mean by power:

* The G4 is known for far superior clock-for-clock performance, at least compared with a Pentium3 (more so w/P4). Does anyone know how a Tbird's performance compares to a G4, clock-for-clock? I wouldn't cross out the possibility that a G4/733 could challenge a Tbird/1200.

* The G4, as far as I know, draws very little power, which lets it produce extremely little heat. Apple is known for designing their cases with few, and recently, no fans at all. This results in a computer that doesn't add ambient noise. Tbirds are obviously on the opposite end, dissipating >50 watts of power. (My retail Tbird 1100 is undervolted @1.55V, which keeps it in the low 40's. But I still have to use a fan.)

* Apple seems to have graduated from kindergarden with the introduction of what seem to be:
1) 133MHz FSB
2) AGP4X support and GeForce2 MX cards finally appearing on PowerMacs
3) Built-in Gigabit ethernet! :Q
4) Combo CDRW/DVD-R drive in top model--it's a real DVD-R drive--you can get $10 blanks from Apple or elsewhere and read produced DVD-R's from any DVD drive!
5) The performance of a dual G4 533MHz in supported apps is scary--it's definitely faster than any single PC processor to date.

There are obvious drawbacks--software/hardware support is still limited, and the cost is 2-3X what my Tbird 1100 box cost me (since you get awesome deals on PC equipment). But still, it looks to me like Apple is really competing again--their new systems seem like luxury rigs with impressive horsepower and excellent noise/environment characteristics.
 

vm

Senior member
Jan 4, 2001
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I really like the Macs, they look good, they do great in multimedia apps (wich I use), I love how they do things too.But the set backs r huge..there isn't alot of games running on macs (i'm an avid gamer), their prices are way too high, and there isn't much place for customability (sp?) and expansion in them..
 

KarsinTheHutt

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2000
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<<<In fact, at speeds of 5.5 gigaflops, the new 733MHz PowerPC G4 processor with Velocity Engine is up to 57% faster than a 1.5 GHz Pentium 4>>>

Pentium 4 has a peak of 6.0 gigaflops when using SSE 2 @ 1.5 GHz. Seeing as Photoshop isn't even optomized for it yet, these tests are bogus.
 

Noriaki

Lifer
Jun 3, 2000
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I wouldn't count on a G4 733 beating a TBird 1200 in most things, but it is certainly nice to see Mac making some headway. If they could get dual G4s @ 733 that would be salivia inducing ;)
 

Leo V

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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Answering my question: 4 gigaflops at 1GHz (single precision floats). This puts the 1.2GHz Tbird at 4.8 gigaflops, 13% behind the G4! Of course, these figures are purely theoretical.
 

Noriaki

Lifer
Jun 3, 2000
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My only beef there is that Mac articles tend to ignore that PCs also have SIMD. It's not as good as AltiVec, but SSE can give one hell of a kick if it's used right. Of course everything in Mac is fully proprietary so they make sure AltiVec is optimized for, but then that's their perogative to do that being as they are proprietary. The new Mac stuff looks pretty impressive. I'd like to see them with DDR SDRAM now hehehe.
 

pidge

Banned
Oct 10, 1999
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Compaq is coming out with a DVD-R drive in their PC's that can make DVD disks so I would rather just have the compaq, even if it is just a compaq.
 

Trader05

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2000
5,096
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G4 faster than Intel/AMD...I'd have to see it to believe it, I wanna see a mac running windows! LOL, but seriously, how would it run? Also a pc running MACOS! Damn i don't know much about macs, but mac os looks like a updated win3.1 to me, imagine if we were still running win3.1, how fast would we run?
 

Oreo

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
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The G4 ISN´T as fast as Steve Jobs says it is, just remeber that. In Photshop the Macs are fast, yes, but not THAT much faster. A G4 500MHz is about as fast as a PIII750 MHz, so the new 733 is probably a little faster then a 1Ghz PIII. A 1200MHz T-bird would probably win though, even without any SIMD support whatsoever. And remember that this is in ONE app, the one app that the Mac has the biggest speed advantage in. In ALOT of other (read most) apps the PC is still alot faster than any Mac and also alot cheaper.
 

noxipoo

Golden Member
Aug 12, 2000
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its unfair to compare Macs to PCs.

1. The cost is usually at least double for a Mac thats has older hardware.
2. The software package and availble software is too different. (games on a mac? a joke)
3. Macs use outrages claims in their ADs like how the pentagon won't let them export macs since they are way too powerful (no such law on those things)
4. All their benchmarks are done using really old benchmarks.
5. Most of them come with useless hardware for the public which only adds to the high cost of the machines (gigabit ethernet for a house?)

All the years of false advertising has led to people believing macs are far faster than PCs at doing everything it does. Only thing is Photoshop out of how many things since its optimized beyond anything. Theres lots of macs emulating PC software but a fraction emulating Mac software, that says something. And whos really buying those things and making movies :p

[edit] the MacOS 9.x and below is also a joke, everything crashes. and they turned a free OS kernel into their own and charging people for it and calling it OS10. bah!
 

troubledshooter

Senior member
Aug 17, 2000
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I used Macs most of my life, and only just recently made the switch (sadly doing CS/EE in school is just too much of a hassle on a Mac). A few comments:

Macs cost too much. Sad but true.
Anyone who uses the Windows 9X kernel (WinME included) needs to watch what they say about the MacOS. My favorite is the 'Macs can't multitask.&quot; If that is a win 9X user making that comment, I wonder when you last touched a Mac--11 years ago? Win2k has a decided advantage.
The Gigabit ethernet is overkill and sick.
Sticking by ATI for so long was a big mistake.
The G4 is incredibly fast for MANY things--anything that needs raw computing power (Excel anyone?).
They need to cut the gadgets. Flatscreens that go for 3 grand are not a smart economic move.
Cute only gets you so far in the computer industry.
Mac OS X will either save or destroy the Mac. Expectations are high, if fufilled, the Mac should bounce back. If they are not met, the Mac is irrevocably doomed.

$.02
 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
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<< If they are not met, the Mac is irrevocably doomed. >>



People have been saying that for the past decade. Apple has always managed to muddle their way through. As much as I hate Macs, they are gonna be around for a while.
 

Pyro

Banned
Sep 2, 2000
1,483
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<<
1) 133MHz FSB
2) AGP4X support and GeForce2 MX cards finally appearing on PowerMacs
3) Built-in Gigabit ethernet!
4) Combo CDRW/DVD-R drive in top model--it's a real DVD-R drive--you can get $10 blanks from Apple or elsewhere and read produced DVD-R's from any DVD drive!
5) The performance of a dual G4 533MHz in supported apps is scary--it's definitely faster than any single PC processor to date.
>>



Personally, I am glad that Apple is making improvements, however, the 'major' improvements they just make will only make them competitive with current PCs, not future ones.
1. it certainly took them long enough to incoporate something the PC has had for 16 months now!
2. Nice, but absolutely no match for PC cards. Entry level systems still come with *laugh* rage128 chips and the mx is their high end -- HAHAHA
3. Utterly useless. the vast majority of network infrastructure does not support gigabit.
4. Nice, but very inflexible. Personally, I'd much prefer a CD, CDRW and DVDR standalone drives.
5. You'd have to show us NON-APPLE benchmarks.


These improvements will only compete with current hardware (can easily see a 1.2ghz Tbird whipping the new g4s). I read that the 733mhz models will only be available in febuary. We know that it wont be more than seveal months know until we can get dual tbirds or palominos with DDR.
I am speculating here, but i am 99% sure that a dual 1.5ghz palomino DDR computer with the NV20 will cost about the same as the 733mhz macs and we all know which one will be faster... :)
 

Leo V

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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Yeah, a dual Palomino is definitely something to look forward to. However, AMD had better reduce power consumption to sub-30Watt levels, because I won't stand for an industrial-strength room heater, aka a dual 60Watt Palomino machine that requires a 450Watt PSU.
 

Leo V

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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Just to add: the &quot;mobile&quot; sub-GHz Palomino will indeed consume <20 watts of power according to online sources. But I wonder how much a 1.5GHz desktop version will eat up.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
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I'm just curious...can the Apple Cinema 22&quot; LCD be used with MAC Radeons? I'm under the pretense that the Apple 22&quot; Cinema is not compatible with PC DVI cards like the PC Radeon.

That monitor is so hot it's not even funny...I want one bad.
 

velvetfreak

Member
Nov 24, 2000
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere there was hardly anything on the market that has been optimized for Altivec. (Which would explain why Apple always use Photoshop for their comparisons.) On the flip side, I don't think a comparison to Athlons is that far out, considering their similarity in architecture.

I haven't heard anything new about the yield problems they were having. I wonder how they resolved that. -Ah, this makes sense...
 

Pyro

Banned
Sep 2, 2000
1,483
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well, I think its a safe bet that palominos wont produce as much heat. After all according to a TheReg rumour a 1.5ghz aluminum palomino can run with passive cooling. If that turns out to be true then its good news. I have reasont to believe that it is, since the palomino core will be in mobile devices....
 

Remedy

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 1999
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Someone tell me this, Aren't the Mac cpu's based on the RISC processor, and the PC Cpu's based on CISC? How do you compare apples to oranges?
 

Leo V

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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ReMeDy, it doesn't make that much difference. Comparing CISC processors with different cores (P3 vs Tbird) is really no different. You just take into account different clock-for-clock performance. BTW, I've programmed in PowerPC assembly before (on G3), it's much easier on RISC machines! :)
 

noxipoo

Golden Member
Aug 12, 2000
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because they compare it to the PCs all the time and say they are far superior. else why would anyone care about them.
 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
15,581
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<< Someone tell me this, Aren't the Mac cpu's based on the RISC processor, and the PC Cpu's based on CISC? How do you compare apples to oranges? >>



I've heard that this analogy doesn't work anymore. Modern &quot;RISC&quot; aren't that much simpler than CISC processors in terms of transistor counts and modern &quot;CISC&quot; processors all have RISC-like backends. The front end for current CISC processors just decodes the instructions into RISC ones.