Apple/ATT sued over iPhone 4 issues

TheWart

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2000
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Lawsuits like these have a very poor track record; just look at what people were able to (not) do with consumer devices that had a high error rate. The Xbox 360 had a 54% fail rate. The PS3 has about a 10% iirc, and the Wii ~7%.

That means one would expect -at a minimum- a 5% rate for the iPhone. Which means about 85,000 faulty devices out of the gate. Considering that the antenna issue only affects some people (and depends on having a poor signal) and does not cause the phone to stop taking/making calls for most (see the Anand review), I really don't see the plaintiffs getting too much out of this.

Who knows though!
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
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Considering that the antenna issue only affects some people (and depends on having a poor signal) and does not cause the phone to stop taking/making calls for most (see the Anand review), I really don't see the plaintiffs getting too much out of this.

Who knows though!

I thought that article actually stated the issues affects ALL, you just won't notice if you have a strong enough signal to begin with.

You're right though, I doubt much of anything will come from this lawsuit. I'm just shocked it took so long to file.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
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I thought that article actually stated the issues affects ALL, you just won't notice if you have a strong enough signal to begin with.

You're right though, I doubt much of anything will come from this lawsuit. I'm just shocked it took so long to file.

Yeah, not sure what TheWart is getting at but maybe he needs to read it again. When the antenna are bridged you consistently see a 24db drop in signal. If you're at the max signal you can drop the 24db and still register at 5 bars, but you still dropped those 24. If you're right at the minimum threshold of 5 bars, when you lose those 24 db you see a loss of bars even though it's the same quantitative signal loss. It's all a matter of the scale used for the bar display on the iphone. The issue seems to appear spotty because many people have a strong enough signal to not lose service even with the drop.
 

TheWart

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2000
5,219
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Yeah, not sure what TheWart is getting at but maybe he needs to read it again. When the antenna are bridged you consistently see a 24db drop in signal. If you're at the max signal you can drop the 24db and still register at 5 bars, but you still dropped those 24. If you're right at the minimum threshold of 5 bars, when you lose those 24 db you see a loss of bars even though it's the same quantitative signal loss. It's all a matter of the scale used for the bar display on the iphone. The issue seems to appear spotty because many people have a strong enough signal to not lose service even with the drop.

That is my point. If the phone is still usable (even with the antenna bridged) for most people, then I don't see how a judge will be sympathetic. "But your honor, even though my phone calls work, my little bars are fewer than before! I demand millions!"

The people for whom the product totally fails (eg the phone can't get any network activity due to the antenna being bridged) can just return their phone...It is not like this is some issue that cropped up 5 years after the phone came out. Everyone is within the 30 day window to return it if they are not happy.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
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That is my point. If the phone is still usable (even with the antenna bridged) for most people, then I don't see how a judge will be sympathetic. "But your honor, even though my phone calls work, my little bars are fewer than before! I demand millions!"

The people for whom the product totally fails (eg the phone can't get any network activity due to the antenna being bridged) can just return their phone...It is not like this is some issue that cropped up 5 years after the phone came out. Everyone is within the 30 day window to return it if they are not happy.

I understand that, but in a class action suit the judge doesn't pick and choose who gets what specifically... it's either guilty or not, and then here's the damages. If something is uncovered that Apple knew about the problem and hid it, they could be fucked (the fraud by concealment part). It doesn't matter if some people aren't fully losing signal, it still could be ruled fraud by concealment.

Best thing for Apple to do now is allow people to get the bumper for free.
 

TheWart

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2000
5,219
1
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I understand that, but in a class action suit the judge doesn't pick and choose who gets what specifically... it's either guilty or not, and then here's the damages. If something is uncovered that Apple knew about the problem and hid it, they could be fucked (the fraud by concealment part). It doesn't matter if some people aren't fully losing signal, it still could be ruled fraud by concealment.

Best thing for Apple to do now is allow people to get the bumper for free.

Hmm interesting.

I am not a lawyer, so my legal analysis is specious at best, but I am just surprised that one could win a lawsuit because your device doesn't work well, especially if you have other forms of readdress (read: returns).
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
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Hmm interesting.

I am not a lawyer, so my legal analysis is specious at best, but I am just surprised that one could win a lawsuit because your device doesn't work well, especially if you have other forms of readdress (read: returns).

That's my issue with this as well. What damages do people possibly have right now when they can just return the phone? Gas money?
 

Axon

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2003
2,541
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I understand that, but in a class action suit the judge doesn't pick and choose who gets what specifically... it's either guilty or not, and then here's the damages. If something is uncovered that Apple knew about the problem and hid it, they could be fucked (the fraud by concealment part). It doesn't matter if some people aren't fully losing signal, it still could be ruled fraud by concealment.

Best thing for Apple to do now is allow people to get the bumper for free.

This is correct. Personally, if I was on this case, I would expect some traction on the injunction but little in the way of damages.

On their face, the claims appear to be weak, but you never really know until discovery. Nonetheless, I expect it to survive 12(b)(6) if it doesn't settle outright, with Apple agreeing to the injunction and some limited cash for the plaintiff class (this will be one of those check for $3 suits, or even the bumper for free).

I could not find any patents relating to the antenna in the Iphone 4, so I suppose we'll see what comes out.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
You guys forget that people can sue for anything now-a-days and many have won for their stupid cases.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Can beat a companies product in the market place?

File a bunch of frivolous lawsuits to generate negative press.
 

foghorn67

Lifer
Jan 3, 2006
11,883
63
91
Seriously, it's been out for several days. Holy crap, give them time to address it.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
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Seriously, it's been out for several days. Holy crap, give them time to address it.

How long did they know about it before they released the phone? Sir Steve says people are just holding their phones wrong, so he must know about it.
 

foghorn67

Lifer
Jan 3, 2006
11,883
63
91
How long did they know about it before they released the phone? Sir Steve says people are just holding their phones wrong, so he must know about it.

He said that after the issues were brought up, didn't he? Forgot timeline of events. Also, maybe the knew about it, but thought they fixed it.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
He said that after the issues were brought up, didn't he? Forgot timeline of events. Also, maybe the knew about it, but thought they fixed it.

of course it was after the issue was brought up...wasn't the issue brought up the first day the phone was out?

I'm not picking on the iPhone...I'm really not. I do think its bull if they knew about this before the phones shipped and did nothing to fix it. We all know that these phones were field tested before launch so I find it hard to believe that Apple had no idea about the problem.
 

TheWart

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2000
5,219
1
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from my post in the other thread...Apple just released a press release:

Here is their response:

The iPhone 4 has been the most successful product launch in Apple's history. It has been judged by reviewers around the world to be the best smartphone ever, and users have told us that they love it. So we were surprised when we read reports of reception problems, and we immediately began investigating them. Here is what we have learned.

To start with, gripping almost any mobile phone in certain ways will reduce its reception by 1 or more bars. This is true of iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS, as well as many Droid, Nokia and RIM phones. But some users have reported that iPhone 4 can drop 4 or 5 bars when tightly held in a way which covers the black strip in the lower left corner of the metal band. This is a far bigger drop than normal, and as a result some have accused the iPhone 4 of having a faulty antenna design.

At the same time, we continue to read articles and receive hundreds of emails from users saying that iPhone 4 reception is better than the iPhone 3GS. They are delighted. This matches our own experience and testing. What can explain all of this?

We have discovered the cause of this dramatic drop in bars, and it is both simple and surprising.

Upon investigation, we were stunned to find that the formula we use to calculate how many bars of signal strength to display is totally wrong. Our formula, in many instances, mistakenly displays 2 more bars than it should for a given signal strength. For example, we sometimes display 4 bars when we should be displaying as few as 2 bars. Users observing a drop of several bars when they grip their iPhone in a certain way are most likely in an area with very weak signal strength, but they don't know it because we are erroneously displaying 4 or 5 bars. Their big drop in bars is because their high bars were never real in the first place.

To fix this, we are adopting AT&T's recently recommended formula for calculating how many bars to display for a given signal strength. The real signal strength remains the same, but the iPhone's bars will report it far more accurately, providing users a much better indication of the reception they will get in a given area. We are also making bars 1, 2 and 3 a bit taller so they will be easier to see.

We will issue a free software update within a few weeks that incorporates the corrected formula. Since this mistake has been present since the original iPhone, this software update will also be available for the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 3G.

We have gone back to our labs and retested everything, and the results are the same-- the iPhone 4's wireless performance is the best we have ever shipped. For the vast majority of users who have not been troubled by this issue, this software update will only make your bars more accurate. For those who have had concerns, we apologize for any anxiety we may have caused.

As a reminder, if you are not fully satisfied, you can return your undamaged iPhone to any Apple Retail Store or the online Apple Store within 30 days of purchase for a full refund.

Interesting that they will actually show less bars than before...hmm
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
from my post in the other thread...Apple just released a press release:

Here is their response:



Interesting that they will actually show less bars than before...hmm

LULZ...

That's going to land them right on CNN again...

Apple needs to suck it up and at least offer free skins that cover the antennas for life and have genius bars install them & or mail them out for free for customer install (or bumper bands or something to people that complain)
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
34
91
The solution is actually pretty hilarious. We'll fix the software to display reality but your problem is still exactly the same as it was before.