AP poll: Majority harbor prejudice against blacks

[Hayabusa Rider]

Good points Don, however judging from my exploration of how others respond to thoughtful posts I'm not sure it's going to be well received by some. There are those who wish to avoid examination either by clinging to preconceived biases or use the opportunity to cow others with the specter of labelling. We've come far, but we still further yet to go.

 

[Darwin333]

There has been a great deal of topic drift here, but a few comments on this story:

It is unfortunate that a great percentage of people in the United States, including black people, are more fearful and/or distrustful of black people than they are of other kinds of people. What is perhaps more unfortunate, however, is the corollary that such an opinion springs mostly from the very poor condition of African American culture.

It is statistically true that black people have, since the Civil War era, been responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent crime, and thus a certain level of fear of them (particularly young black men) is entirely warranted, and not, in my view, racist. Moreover, to the extent individual black people choose to adopt styles of dress and behavior that are cartoonish, profane and/or celebrate a criminal culture, I can't call it racism when people fear them.

My own view is that there are a number of issues at play here, in terms of how we got to such a deplorable situation. A great percentage of the blame, modernly, lies with the existence of post-Johnson welfare state policies that make it possible to eke out a modest, humiliating living without working. Another chunk of the blame lies with the War on Drugs, which has devastated many black families, without any legitimate justification IMO.

Perhaps the most important cause (which is affected by both of the above) is the depressingly widespread abandonment of families by black men. If the same guy fathers 10 kids with 8 different women, and takes care of none of them, he has just created a whole web of problems. At this point 66% of all black kids are in single parent households, as compared to only 24% of white kids - http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=107 If we could bring that number down to 24%, substantially all the rest of this would take care of itself, because kids raised by two parents are much likelier to have discipline, to take school seriously, and to be able to build a life financed by something other than public assistance and/or crime.

As for the other comments in this thread, I do not agree, necessarily, that white people are the "least racist" - that has certainly not been my perception. Moreover, I think the prevalence of black-on-white crime relative to white-on-black crime is in no way illustrative of racism by the perpetrators - just indicative of the relative prevalence of criminal behavior by black people versus white people. The victims of most violent crimes perpetrated by black people are themselves black - are we supposed to consider those hate crimes as well?

In general I think we are moving in a positive direction with respect to racial relations, and I would love to see African Americans as a whole deal with the problems that have made them into a persistent underclass (crime, abandonment of families, de-emphasis on education, over-reliance on public assistance). I know these are huge issues but acknowledging them is the first step toward fixing them. I expect that if and when they are able to do so, people as a whole will be far less prejudiced toward them.

I agree completely and have been harping on policies that although well intentioned have had severely negative side effects.

One thing I disagree with is the use of "African-American". I only know a single black person that has ever been to Africa and he was born here so I consider him just an everyday normal American. If I meet an actual immigrant from Africa, sure, but all the black folk I know are as close to Africa as I am to Europe and I have never been called a European-American. Shrug, I just think its another thing that divides us. A certain group is generally just called "Americans" while other groups are hyphenated Americans, I don't play that game unless a person specifically asks me to.

 

[zinfamous]

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-poll-majority-harbor-prejudice-against-blacks-073551680--election.html

The problem I have with that poll is it looks like only White people were polled for it, as though only whites can be racist...It would be nice to see a poll asking black people their views on whites, im sure the % would be far higher who are anti-white.

that would do nothing to validate the poll any more than it is (or isn't), because that is irrelevant to the poll.

You only want to see it because you want some type of confirmation of your own, clear, prejudice. (that last sentence of yours is hilarious, btw)

 

[zinfamous]

They didn't build that, it was all thanks to white property owners and their capital that built it.

White capital didn't build shit in this argument. that's the entire purpose of slavery, you dingbat.

 

[zinfamous]

Homicide Offending Rates per 100,000 Population by Race

White Black Other

2000 3.5 25.6 3.3
2001 3.5 25.6 3.0
2002 3.6 25.0 2.9
2003 3.5 25.3 3.4
2004 3.6 24.1 2.7
2005 3.5 26.5 2.8

not because of the color of their skin, but because of their culture and how they behave.

source for data table:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/oracetab.cfm

the only thing your photos show me are a young cute girl just as likely to blow a professor for some pot as she is to be valedictorian, and a pair of boys hanging out in their neighborhood, mugging for the camera.


Ah photos....they can tell us everything, and nothing.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

One thing I disagree with is the use of "African-American". I only know a single black person that has ever been to Africa and he was born here so I consider him just an everyday normal American. If I meet an actual immigrant from Africa, sure, but all the black folk I know are as close to Africa as I am to Europe and I have never been called a European-American. Shrug, I just think its another thing that divides us. A certain group is generally just called "Americans" while other groups are hyphenated Americans, I don't play that game unless a person specifically asks me to.

I personally think African-American is rather unwieldy as well, but I will call people what they want to be called - I don't want something as simple as a title like this to interfere with my ability to communicate with another person. It is notable, though, how during my lifetime we have drifted through so many different acceptable terms, including "colored people," "Afro-Americans," "black people," and now "African-Americans," with the old titles in some cases now being seen as racist. It seems goofy to me, but again I will use whatever title makes people comfortable.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Good points Don, however judging from my exploration of how others respond to thoughtful posts I'm not sure it's going to be well received by some. There are those who wish to avoid examination either by clinging to preconceived biases or use the opportunity to cow others with the specter of labelling. We've come far, but we still further yet to go.

This entire topic is one that we as a nation have a hard time discussing openly (despite the fact that we spend endless time and energy on it). I think the President has done a decent job on making this more of an open dialogue, though there is still huge room for improvement there.

 

[werepossum]

There has been a great deal of topic drift here, but a few comments on this story:

It is unfortunate that a great percentage of people in the United States, including black people, are more fearful and/or distrustful of black people than they are of other kinds of people. What is perhaps more unfortunate, however, is the corollary that such an opinion springs mostly from the very poor condition of African American culture.

It is statistically true that black people have, since the Civil War era, been responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent crime, and thus a certain level of fear of them (particularly young black men) is entirely warranted, and not, in my view, racist. Moreover, to the extent individual black people choose to adopt styles of dress and behavior that are cartoonish, profane and/or celebrate a criminal culture, I can't call it racism when people fear them.

My own view is that there are a number of issues at play here, in terms of how we got to such a deplorable situation. A great percentage of the blame, modernly, lies with the existence of post-Johnson welfare state policies that make it possible to eke out a modest, humiliating living without working. Another chunk of the blame lies with the War on Drugs, which has devastated many black families, without any legitimate justification IMO.

Perhaps the most important cause (which is affected by both of the above) is the depressingly widespread abandonment of families by black men. If the same guy fathers 10 kids with 8 different women, and takes care of none of them, he has just created a whole web of problems. At this point 66% of all black kids are in single parent households, as compared to only 24% of white kids - http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=107 If we could bring that number down to 24%, substantially all the rest of this would take care of itself, because kids raised by two parents are much likelier to have discipline, to take school seriously, and to be able to build a life financed by something other than public assistance and/or crime.

As for the other comments in this thread, I do not agree, necessarily, that white people are the "least racist" - that has certainly not been my perception. Moreover, I think the prevalence of black-on-white crime relative to white-on-black crime is in no way illustrative of racism by the perpetrators - just indicative of the relative prevalence of criminal behavior by black people versus white people. The victims of most violent crimes perpetrated by black people are themselves black - are we supposed to consider those hate crimes as well?

In general I think we are moving in a positive direction with respect to racial relations, and I would love to see African Americans as a whole deal with the problems that have made them into a persistent underclass (crime, abandonment of families, de-emphasis on education, over-reliance on public assistance). I know these are huge issues but acknowledging them is the first step toward fixing them. I expect that if and when they are able to do so, people as a whole will be far less prejudiced toward them.

Excellent post. It's glaringly apparent that liberal welfare policies have, with the best of intentions, produced massive social problems by supporting single mothers and not families. Correct for single parent homes and there is no significant gap between white and black crime rates. We desperately need to revise our programs to be more family-friendly, but in the mean time, after-school and summer programs providing supervision and safety are good investments. A strong and loving two-parent family with high expectations is by far the best bulwark against crime and poverty, but other things can provide some of the benefits. We cannot find a good husband for a crack-addicted mother - we can't even get her off crack - but we can give her kids a shot in spite of her.

Your other points are spot-on as well. As always though, I strongly suspect that such polls written up with the warning that racism is going to cost Obama votes are uniformly presented in the attempt to gain Obama votes by firing white guilt and promoting voting among blacks. You aren't just supporting a mediocre President, you're fighting racism!

 

[Aikouka]

I'm really not surprised by this. I think the three things that directly relate to this is how humans tend to associate ideas/concepts together (i.e. black <-> rap), notice differences between things before we notice similarities, and fear things we don't understand. How do you think we create stereotypes? We have such a culture that either seeks to perpetuate these stereotype through media portrayal or even said people acting or dressing that way. I know that Bill Cosby has had a few good things to say on that subject.

Perhaps the most important cause (which is affected by both of the above) is the depressingly widespread abandonment of families by black men. If the same guy fathers 10 kids with 8 different women, and takes care of none of them, he has just created a whole web of problems. At this point 66% of all black kids are in single parent households, as compared to only 24% of white kids - http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=107 If we could bring that number down to 24%, substantially all the rest of this would take care of itself, because kids raised by two parents are much likelier to have discipline, to take school seriously, and to be able to build a life financed by something other than public assistance and/or crime.

People: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0711.pdf
Children: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0712.pdf

Statistics show that black families (and Hispanic) are more likely to be below the poverty line, which could serve as a catalyst for your situation or be a result of what you described. I guess I'm suggesting that families below the poverty line may be more subject to turmoil due to their state.

 

[spittledip]

Why is it a glaring omission? those stats dont conflict with what i put in my post, just didnt want a page long post.]

The rotten culture that values image and status over thrift, education, hard work, and the nuclear family is what leads to their significantly higher crime rates, and the completely rational fear that whites have of blacks. Of course there's always exceptions and tons of great people and families who are black, but the statistics speak for themselves.

Their culture is merely a subculture of our own. It just looks different. Essentially, black Americans have the exact same ideals as white Americans.

 

[Jadow]

the only thing your photos show me are a young cute girl just as likely to blow a professor for some pot as she is to be valedictorian, and a pair of boys hanging out in their neighborhood, mugging for the camera.


Ah photos....they can tell us everything, and nothing.

well in this case those two brothers lured that girl to their house, killed her and threw her body in the dumpster.

 

[LumbergTech]

Excellent post. It's glaringly apparent that liberal welfare policies have, with the best of intentions, produced massive social problems by supporting single mothers and not families. Correct for single parent homes and there is no significant gap between white and black crime rates. We desperately need to revise our programs to be more family-friendly, but in the mean time, after-school and summer programs providing supervision and safety are good investments. A strong and loving two-parent family with high expectations is by far the best bulwark against crime and poverty, but other things can provide some of the benefits. We cannot find a good husband for a crack-addicted mother - we can't even get her off crack - but we can give her kids a shot in spite of her.

Your other points are spot-on as well. As always though, I strongly suspect that such polls written up with the warning that racism is going to cost Obama votes are uniformly presented in the attempt to gain Obama votes by firing white guilt and promoting voting among blacks. You aren't just supporting a mediocre President, you're fighting racism!

Mostly BS conclusion...As if you are going to convince these men to take care of their children by trying to make the children suffer with bullshit policies. I really don't mean this personally, but this seems completely delusional to me. I agree with the 2nd part, about putting more money into programs that enrich the lives of children.

 

[DCal430]

I'm really not surprised by this. I think the three things that directly relate to this is how humans tend to associate ideas/concepts together (i.e. black <-> rap), notice differences between things before we notice similarities, and fear things we don't understand. How do you think we create stereotypes? We have such a culture that either seeks to perpetuate these stereotype through media portrayal or even said people acting or dressing that way. I know that Bill Cosby has had a few good things to say on that subject.



People: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0711.pdf
Children: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0712.pdf

Statistics show that black families (and Hispanic) are more likely to be below the poverty line, which could serve as a catalyst for your situation or be a result of what you described. I guess I'm suggesting that families below the poverty line may be more subject to turmoil due to their state.

I don't see poverty as a cause, but as a symptom. Other groups have had similar poverty rates in the past, but were able to overcome it quickly. The main difference is they have a low rate of single parent households.

 

[Steeplerot]

well in this case those two brothers lured that girl to their house, killed her and threw her body in the dumpster.

Notice a pattern here? Does this lead to the conclusion that white people will lure you into a house, skin you alive and eat your intestines while your murderer laughs while using your eyeballs as martini olives?

Because it sure seems like its a Caucasian family values tradition.

Pretty weird. But a few whackjobs do not = a whole race.

 

[a777pilot]

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-poll-majority-harbor-prejudice-against-blacks-073551680--election.html

"WASHINGTON (AP) — Racial attitudes have not improved in the four years since the United States elected its first black president,

That's all I read of the OP.

I stopped at the first error.

Obama is NOT black. He is non-white, non-all white, but he is NOT black. If you are going to discuss race at least start with the racial facts.

 

[alien42]

How do you know?

And also underlined for wrong. Like I said, vastly disproportionate poor on rich crimes than vice versa. And you can hardly pretend like despite this huge discrepancy, when a poor person beats a rich person it's money neutral but not when a rich person beats a poor person.

ftfy

it always amazes me how often people get social and economic status confused with race.

 

[SheHateMe]

Notice a pattern here? Does this lead to the conclusion that white people will lure you into a house, skin you alive and eat your intestines while your murderer laughs while using your eyeballs as martini olives?

Because it sure seems like its a Caucasian family values tradition.

Pretty weird. But a few whackjobs do not = a whole race.

You forgot about all the White Womenz that killed their kids over the last 3 or 4 years. Also all the White Mens that either killed their entire families or their wife/children over the last 3 or 4 years...

You know what? What cares!

Black people are the problem, their evil Murder culture is rubbing off on Whites.

 

[SheHateMe]

That's all I read of the OP.

I stopped at the first error.

Obama is NOT black. He is non-white, non-all white, but he is NOT black. If you are going to discuss race at least start with the racial facts.

But he identifies as black. Why do you think that is?

I have a cousin whose mother is Spanish and French on her Mother's side and Black on the other. Her mother is racially ambiguous, she has Green eyes and curly blonde hair. It's hard to tell what she is just looking at her.

Her father (my cousin's father) on the other hand is just like Obama, Half Black and Half White. His mother dumped him off at my Great Grandmothers house in the 60's because she was afraid he was going to become more Tan when he grew up. He is actually very fair skinned and has greyish green eyes. So, none of them are actually related to me. My Great Grandmother was one of the only blacks in a mostly Jewish neighborhood in Detroit...lived there for 70 years or so.

Anyway, my mom said that growing up, the kids at school (both black and white back then) used to tease him about how he looked. The kids would ask him what race he was and he would say "both", they didn't accept his answer so he would say either black or white...still not accepted.

When he became an adult, he was faced with the same damn question...people wanting to know if he was black or white, he couldn't be both because society wouldn't let him..but at the same time, he couldn't identify as white because white people knew he wasn't white.

He found it much easier to just say he was black..even though black people also knew he wasn't black.

I'm thinking Obama identifies as black for the same reason..even though he is much darker than my uncle.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

That's all I read of the OP.

I stopped at the first error.

Obama is NOT black. He is non-white, non-all white, but he is NOT black. If you are going to discuss race at least start with the racial facts.

What a bizarre, wrongheaded digression this is. Given that the OP article is about prejudice toward black people, there is no question whatsoever that if a person held such a prejudice, he would treat President Obama or an unknown person of identical appearance as black. Do you think the KKK asked for a complete family tree before conducting lynchings in the first half of the 20th Century?

Honestly I find your posts absolutely mystifying much of the time.

While we're on the subject of the President, however, what do you think of his handling of the present Hurricane Sandy situation? Certainly Chris Christie, one of Governor Romney's most public and vocal advocates, has been effusive in his praise of the President.

 

[yllus]

I know these are huge issues but acknowledging them is the first step toward fixing them. I expect that if and when they are able to do so, people as a whole will be far less prejudiced toward them.

There's an inherent obstacle to this: Nobody self-identifies as being part of a problem group. I work with a number of black professionals who would be utterly befuddled if asked to apologize or explain the actions of their racial peers, who've they've spent as much time around as you or I have. Similarly, I'd never be prepared to apologize or repudiate Islamists just because I happen to share a skin colour with some of the crazies overseas. It'd be like calling out someone else's name and expecting me to answer I simply don't see "them" as "we" or "me".

I've thought at length about what the core issue of the systematic poverty and crime is; I think the real first step is to teach people to be able to self-reflect. Harper's Magazine best crystallized my thoughts on this in a series of essays they published in the late 90s:

Harper's Magazine - On the Uses of a Liberal Education, Part II: As a weapon in the hands of the restless poor

We had never met before. The conversation around us focused on the abuse of women. [Viniece Walker]'s eyes were perfectly opaque&#8212;hostile, prison eyes. Her mouth was set in the beginning of a sneer.

&#8220;You got to begin with the children,&#8221; she said, speaking rapidly, clipping out the street sounds as they came into her speech.

She paused long enough to let the change of direction take effect, then resumed the rapid, rhythmless speech. &#8220;You&#8217;ve got to teach the moral life of downtown to the children. And the way you do that, Earl, is by taking them downtown to plays, museums, concerts, lectures, where they can learn the moral life of downtown.&#8221;

I smiled at her, misunderstanding, thinking I was indulging her. &#8220;And then they won&#8217;t be poor anymore?&#8221;

She read every nuance of my response, and answered angrily, &#8220;And they won&#8217;t be poor no more.&#8221;

&#8220;What you mean is&#8212;&#8221;

&#8220;What I mean is what I said&#8212;a moral alternative to the street.&#8221;

She didn&#8217;t speak of jobs or money. In that, she was like the others I had listened to. No one had spoken of jobs or money. But how could the &#8220;moral life of downtown&#8221; lead anyone out from the surround of force? How could a museum push poverty away? Who can dress in statues or eat the past? And what of the political life? Had Niecie skipped a step or failed to take a step? The way out of poverty was politics, not the &#8220;moral life of downtown.&#8221;

But to enter the public world, to practice the political life, the poor had first to learn to reflect. That was what Niecie meant by the &#8220;moral life of downtown.&#8221; She did not make the error of divorcing ethics from politics. Niecie had simply said, in a kind of shorthand, that no one could step out of the panicking circumstance of poverty directly into the public world.

Although she did not say so, I was sure that when she spoke of the &#8220;moral life of downtown&#8221; she meant something that had happened to her. With no job and no money, a prisoner, she had undergone a radical transformation. She had followed the same path that led to the invention of politics in ancient Greece. She had learned to reflect.

In further conversation it became clear that when she spoke of &#8220;the moral life of downtown&#8221; she meant the humanities, the study of human constructs and concerns, which has been the source of reflection for the secular world since the Greeks first stepped back from nature to experience wonder at what they beheld.

If the political life was the way out of poverty, the humanities provided an entrance to reflection and the political life. The poor did not need anyone to release them; an escape route existed. But to open this avenue to reflection and politics a major distinction between the preparation for the life of the rich and the life of the poor had to be eliminated.

...

A few days later Lynette Lauretig arranged a meeting with some of her staff at The Door. We disagreed about the course. They thought it should be taught at a much lower level. Although I could not change their views, they agreed to assemble a group of Door members who might be interested in the humanities.

Having failed in the South Bronx, I resolved to approach these prospective students differently. &#8220;You&#8217;ve been cheated,&#8221; I said. &#8220;Rich people learn the humanities; you didn&#8217;t. The humanities are a foundation for getting along in the world, for thinking, for learning to reflect on the world instead of just reacting to whatever force is turned against you. I think the humanities are one of the ways to become political, and I don&#8217;t mean political in the sense of voting in an election but in the broad sense.&#8221; I told them Thucydides&#8217; definition of politics.

&#8220;Rich people know politics in that sense. They know how to negotiate instead of using force. They know how to use politics to get along, to get power. It doesn&#8217;t mean that rich people are good and poor people are bad. It simply means that rich people know a more effective method for living in this society.

&#8220;Do all rich people, or people who are in the middle, know the humanities? Not a chance. But some do. And it helps. It helps to live better and enjoy life more. Will the humanities make you rich? Yes. Absolutely. But not in terms of money. In terms of life.

&#8220;Rich people learn the humanities in private schools and expensive universities. And that&#8217;s one of the ways in which they learn the political life. I think that is the real difference between the haves and have-nots in this country. If you want real power, legitimate power, the kind that comes from the people and belongs to the people, you must understand politics. The humanities will help."

...

One Saturday morning in January, David Howell telephoned me at home. &#8220;Mr. Shores,&#8221; he said, Anglicizing my name, as many of the students did.

&#8220;Mr. Howell,&#8221; I responded, recognizing his voice.

&#8220;How you doin&#8217;, Mr. Shores?&#8221;

&#8220;I&#8217;m fine. How are you?&#8221;

&#8220;I had a little problem at work.&#8221;

Uh-oh, I thought, bad news was coming. David is a big man, generally good-humored but with a quick temper. According to his mother, he had a history of violent behavior. In the classroom he had been one of the best students, a steady man, twenty-four years old, who always did the reading assignments and who often made interesting connections between the humanities and daily life. &#8220;What happened?&#8221;

&#8220;Mr. Shores, there&#8217;s a woman at my job, she said some things to me and I said some things to her. And she told my supervisor I had said things to her, and he called me in about it. She&#8217;s forty years old and she don&#8217;t have no social life, and I have a good social life, and she&#8217;s jealous of me.&#8221;

&#8220;And then what happened?&#8221; The tone of his voice and the timing of the call did not portend good news.

&#8220;Mr. Shores, she made me so mad, I wanted to smack her up against the wall. I tried to talk to some friends to calm myself down a little, but nobody was around.&#8221;

&#8220;And what did you do?&#8221; I asked, fearing this was his one telephone call from the city jail.

&#8220;Mr. Shores, I asked myself, &#8216;What would Socrates do?&#8217; &#8221;

David Howell had reasoned that his co-worker&#8217;s envy was not his problem after all, and he had dropped his rage.

...