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AoC and Omar declare Bolivia to be a coup...

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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,970
14,127
136
Did we also back Brazil's right wing election?

Christ you guys sound PRECISELY like Trump in that when your team (as if political groups are teams - yet you make them out to be) loses you just shout FAKE NEWS! RUSSIA DID IT! AMERIKKKA DID IT! ITS AN INSIDE JOB!


Whatever sugar tits, grab your tinfoil hat at the door please.
So, that's deflection & denial, right? The level of US involvement in this could be a little or a lot. It seems unlikely that it would have occurred w/o the tacit consent of Pompeo's State dept. At least he didn't announce it in advance, like in Venezuela's failed attempt.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,282
502
126
A house divided can not stand especially one that is centered around a person instead of policies and procedures that are fair to all.


Left-Wing and Indigenous Discontent

This fall’s unfolding pattern of rightist revanchism, the role of oligarchic forces in funding opposition, and the final arbitrating role played by the military all point to a highly organized right-wing coup. But Morales’s administration had already been weakened by the way he and his cabinet had alienated many left and indigenous movements over three terms in office. As Aymara intellectual Silvia Rivera Cusicanqui notes, “It’s key [for us] to also understand the process of increased division and degradation that the social movements suffered during the tenure of Evo Morales. The movements who were initially the president’s support base were divided and degraded by a left that would allow only one possibility and wouldn’t allow autonomy.”

Lowland indigenous peoples and their supporters were particularly critical of Morales’s extractivist agenda. In many cases, the Morales government failed to consult with local communities about extractive projects despite this being written into the constitution. Indigenous groups argued that his support of the soy, cattle, and hydroelectric power industries and hydrocarbons exploration in eastern Bolivia led to the exploitation of low-income and indigenous Bolivians, wreaked havoc on the environment, and caused community displacement.

Many on the left had also become increasingly frustrated with Morales’s failure to respect the Constitution (approved by 61 percent of the electorate by referendum during Morales’s first term in office). In 2016, Morales pushed through a referendum that asked Bolivian citizens to allow him to run for a fourth term. Fifty-one percent of voters said no, but through a series of legally dubious maneuvers, he ignored these results and was approved to run by the constitutional court. The referendum became the rallying cry of the urban middle classes and regional civic committees hoping to unseat Morales but unable to do so electorally, but even those who once supported Morales were growing increasingly frustrated with his desire to hold onto power.

Concerns arose about other aspects of his style of rule. Commentators like Rivera Cusicanqui, sociologist Maria Teresa Zegada Claure, and journalist Linda Farthing have highlighted MAS’s penchant for centralizing power by absorbing movements into the state, establishing a hierarchical structure of governance and control built around a powerful leader. MAS has strategically demobilized radical movements by incorporating key leaders into positions of power within the government while making it illegal for landless people to occupy latifundios—despite the tactic serving as a key component of the struggle to redistribute vast (and illegal) landholdings in eastern Bolivia. By 2014, social movements were a shadow of their former selves, with leaders either in the government or in organizations controlled by the government—or otherwise demoralized. Alongside middle-class economic resentment and cries of fraud or corruption from across the political spectrum, this weakening made the ground ripe for a military coup in 2019.
This is from quora and why social democracy not socialism works in Scandinavian countries
I will not get into the definition of socialism, but accept that you call the our social democratic brand of capitalism “socialism”.
I think the clue is what we call “Trepartssamarbeidet”; “The three part cooperation system”. The National Labor Union (LO), the Organization of Businesses/employers (NHO) and the Norwegian State cooperates to find good solutions. (Sweden and Denmark has similar systems as far as I know.)

The labor unions will balanse the power of business owners, but also work to make businesses viable and strong to ensure safe employment. They will in turn demand a fair share of the profit. The state will look at the needs of all parties and seek politial and legislative solutions than support a healthy business development while ensuring healthy development for other groups as well, and for the general development of Norway. This creates a balance of power and ensure a relatively good distribution of wealth. It is also institutionalized so that it creates few strikes and long conflicts. And if there is conflicts, they will occur nearly always in the period of negotiating new tariff deals. The rest of year is called “peace-period” and is respected to a great extent.

On the smallest level, whithin local businesses, there is a long tradition and an ongoing practice that the labor unions cooperate with the leadership in order to make it strong and viable. In turn they will ask that the employees get their fair share, and that they are being heard in other matters as well. In most businesses this cooperation is taken very seriously, and the trade union representatives will be included in a lot of desicions and planning. They are also represented in the firm’s board of directors on roughly the same term as other board members.

The three part cooperation is also extended if the parties desires, to make effektive solutions on other aspects as well; like pollution and climate.
This culture of cooperation makes a society where agreement often is reached, where parties talk to each other, respect and trust each other more than in most other societies. And where the fundamentals are agreed upon. After all we are not strangers to each others; we cooperate, have dialogs and get to understand each other a little bit.
And why socialism will always fail as evident in Latin American countries over and over again

Norway or Denmark are - as others pointed out - not really socialist countries. But even if they can be called socialism, this is a term that is used to describe systems that has very little in common.
I lived in “real socialism” country, as it called itself, and I would characterise it by following:
- rigid totalitarian (and highly corrupt) political system with power concentrated in small circle of upper party officials
- party control over economy with little or no private entrepreneurship allowed
- redistribution of production to support and strengthen its power base - primarily party member and members of few highly unionized industries from which party recruited its armed militias
There is nothing in common this system had with Norway or Denmark.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
20,544
12,190
136
It's fair to say US involvement is highly likely. Since when was there a right wing coup in Latin America that we didn't back, anyway? How many examples do you want?
We are not discussing history we are discussing one recent event. The claim of CIA involvement has been made repeatedly here without evidence. Back it up if you have it.

BTW if the CIA was involved then shame on us, because that shit just erodes our influence in the region and is against who we should be as a nation.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
22,193
23,266
136
We are not discussing history we are discussing one recent event. The claim of CIA involvement has been made repeatedly here without evidence. Back it up if you have it.

BTW if the CIA was involved then shame on us, because that shit just erodes our influence in the region and is against who we should be as a nation.

US government fingerprints all over Bolivia coup

Morales’ resignation came hours after the head of the armed forces and the chief of Bolivia’s police “suggested” that he resign.

The head of the army, General Williams Kalimán Romero, was Bolivia’s military attaché in Washington from 2013 to 2016. The chief of police, General Vladimir Calderón, was Bolivia’s police attaché in Washington until December 2018.


The United States first began targeting Evo Morales in 2001 — five years before being elected president — when the US embassy in La Paz warned that his political base needed to be weakened.

Afterwards, USAID began funding right-wing political parties and “civil society” organizations that would feature heavily in attempts to overthrow President Morales.


The OAS role in the coup

The OAS also played an important role in stoking protests and ensuring that the coup was successful.

On October 21, a day after the election, it issued a statement casting doubt on the process due to an “inexplicable” change in the trend of the vote count.

This statement was thoroughly debunked by the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR), which found that trend did not change and that Morales widened the gap over his rivals due to late reporting rural precincts, where he enjoys a tremendous advantage.

A later statistical analysis by CEPR found that there was “no evidence that the election results were affected by irregularities or fraud.”

However, the damage was done: protesters took to the streets decrying electoral fraud. These claims were echoed by the State Department and Senator Rubio on Twitter.

smells like american involvment to me but of course there's no concrete proof and why would there be?
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
8,174
3,183
136
A house divided can not stand especially one that is centered around a person instead of policies and procedures that are fair to all.



This is from quora and why social democracy not socialism works in Scandinavian countries


And why socialism will always fail as evident in Latin American countries over and over again

For once you make valid points. My doubts would be centred on the question of where that Scandanavian social democracy (and all social democracy) might be heading. I'm not convinced that kind of mixed, middle-ground system is stable. Insofar as other parts of the world used to have something vaguely resembling that system, the social democratic part ended up being subverted by the capitalist part. And today you can see signs of that happening in Scandanavia itself. That process may have taken much longer in Scandanavia, with those countries being stronger at resisting it, for cultural reasons, because they have that 'culture of co-operation', but I don't see that is reproducible, and in fact it seems to slowly eroding even in those countries that have it.
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
8,174
3,183
136
A house divided can not stand especially one that is centered around a person instead of policies and procedures that are fair to all.



This is from quora and why social democracy not socialism works in Scandinavian countries


And why socialism will always fail as evident in Latin American countries over and over again
I'm not at all convinced that that 'culture of co-operation' can withstand the power of global capital.

This article, though about something else entirely, I think relates to the point. It's not just "the Russians" who subvert democracy. Attempting to do that is an intrinsic part of capitalism, it happens as long as there are rich people - Rupert Murdoch, like the Koch brothers, has been doing that long before Putin came to power. Yes, all the things you say about the flaws of socialism are probably true, but it's not really clear to me you can have 'a little bit of capitalism', certainly not in a global economy, where capitalism is global but the democracy part is strictly local - capitalists simply don't play nicely with others.

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,404
5,421
126
This is from quora and why social democracy not socialism works in Scandinavian countries
this is exactly what we want here but anytime anyone proposes anything of the sort it gets called socialism by the foaming at the mouth crowd on the right. "everyone should have meaningfuly access to healthcare guaranteed by the government?!?!? SOC!AL!SMMMM!M!!!!MMM!!!!WHARGARBEL!!!!!111!!
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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To put succinctly in meme form:
I agree, let's tax the middle class at 30-50% instead of our US version which is 0%.

Let's also implement a 20% Federal VAT on every purchase.

YAY! Let's idolize countries and their "benefits" but object to how they are paid! YAY!

(Even though these are also countries that have outspokenly responded by saying we are not socialist. But let's ignore that too!)
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
20,544
12,190
136
I agree, let's tax the middle class at 30-50% instead of our US version which is 0%.

Let's also implement a 20% Federal VAT on every purchase.

YAY! Let's idolize countries and their "benefits" but object to how they are paid! YAY!

(Even though these are also countries that have outspokenly responded by saying we are not socialist. But let's ignore that too!)
You should try posting less and instead read more.

Also lay off the straw people.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,784
20,612
136
You should try posting less and instead read more.

Also lay off the straw people.
I get it now!

S0meon0es guy always makes these weird, unfounded claims like, "the middle class pay 0% taxes!" because he, thinking he is upper class/wealthy, and pays the communist 15% taxes, that he's suepr patriotic because he just KNOWS that the middle class have it easy! Why wouldn't they? they always say things that he hates, so their life must be easy, which means they pay no taxes by the simple fact that he pays taxes (therefore, I'm factually not middle class!).

.....because S0m0nenes guy doesn't realize that he is actually middle class. He doesn't really that his paying taxes actually means that he is middle class. He will never get it, I think, because he never adjusted to the modern reality and range of middle class--the mathematical disparity which means that he, being part of the 98%, still only commands a rather small pie of 3% of the nation's wealth.

lol @ his 3% spoils, while still, THE WEALTHY ARE SO BURDENED BLAAARGAGAGAF:GGLAG!" Must fight for their continued theft of my wealth! BLAGHGHA so Blind and so angry!

lol, I think this is how his brain works.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
14,705
7,996
146
I agree, let's tax the middle class at 30-50% instead of our US version which is 0%.

Let's also implement a 20% Federal VAT on every purchase.

YAY! Let's idolize countries and their "benefits" but object to how they are paid! YAY!

(Even though these are also countries that have outspokenly responded by saying we are not socialist. But let's ignore that too!)



So your advocating for the current system where the richest get the largest percentage increase in income and pay a lower tax percentage than anyone else?

You may want to learn a little history if you think that’s sustainable in the long run.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
23,435
2,735
136
I get it now!

S0meon0es guy always makes these weird, unfounded claims like, "the middle class pay 0% taxes!" because he, thinking he is upper class/wealthy, and pays the communist 15% taxes, that he's suepr patriotic because he just KNOWS that the middle class have it easy! Why wouldn't they? they always say things that he hates, so their life must be easy, which means they pay no taxes by the simple fact that he pays taxes (therefore, I'm factually not middle class!).

.....because S0m0nenes guy doesn't realize that he is actually middle class. He doesn't really that his paying taxes actually means that he is middle class. He will never get it, I think, because he never adjusted to the modern reality and range of middle class--the mathematical disparity which means that he, being part of the 98%, still only commands a rather small pie of 3% of the nation's wealth.

lol @ his 3% spoils, while still, THE WEALTHY ARE SO BURDENED BLAAARGAGAGAF:GGLAG!" Must fight for their continued theft of my wealth! BLAGHGHA so Blind and so angry!

lol, I think this is how his brain works.
I mean you pretty much nailed it here. He's actually probably pretty close to the border, I think he's suggested his household income is somewhere between 150-200k. He's still entirely clueless.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,181
8,713
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I get it now!

S0meon0es guy always makes these weird, unfounded claims like, "the middle class pay 0% taxes!" because he, thinking he is upper class/wealthy, and pays the communist 15% taxes, that he's suepr patriotic because he just KNOWS that the middle class have it easy! Why wouldn't they? they always say things that he hates, so their life must be easy, which means they pay no taxes by the simple fact that he pays taxes (therefore, I'm factually not middle class!).

.....because S0m0nenes guy doesn't realize that he is actually middle class. He doesn't really that his paying taxes actually means that he is middle class. He will never get it, I think, because he never adjusted to the modern reality and range of middle class--the mathematical disparity which means that he, being part of the 98%, still only commands a rather small pie of 3% of the nation's wealth.

lol @ his 3% spoils, while still, THE WEALTHY ARE SO BURDENED BLAAARGAGAGAF:GGLAG!" Must fight for their continued theft of my wealth! BLAGHGHA so Blind and so angry!

lol, I think this is how his brain works.
More like this:
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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you think the middle class pays a 0% tax rate?
Concerning Federal Income Taxes? Yes - the majority of the middle class pay nothing.

Roughly speaking here are the facts (as of tax year 2018): https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2018-update/
Bottom ~20% is a net negative on federal income tax (e.g. - They receive more in tax credits than they even pay in)
Next ~20% pay roughly $0.
Next ~20% pay roughly 3% of our federal income taxes.

Hence - as of 2018 the top 50% contribute 97% of the federal income taxes paid.


Of course I specifically mention federal income tax - you know, the tax that pays our huge trillion dollar spending budget every year? Yeah that one. So the lefty counter argument to my point here is "b-b-b-but what about <insert other unrelated tax>". Classic case of whataboutism. A local state/county/city/district sales tax has zilch to do with our federal budget.


But hey - why use facts about taxation (especially as they relate to socialist programs you proclaim to idolize) when you can use your feelings instead? Anyhow, buckle up - and sign on the dotted line that you're in favor of jacking up our income taxes and VAT rates, because that is what it takes to pay for that. It's already been said many many times that you can tax the rich at 100% and you STILL wouldn't have enough to pay for all your unicorn programs.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,278
3,332
126
44% of US Workers make a Median Wage of $18k US/yr. How can they be expected to pay Income Tax?
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,970
14,127
136
Concerning Federal Income Taxes? Yes - the majority of the middle class pay nothing.

Roughly speaking here are the facts (as of tax year 2018): https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2018-update/
Bottom ~20% is a net negative on federal income tax (e.g. - They receive more in tax credits than they even pay in)
Next ~20% pay roughly $0.
Next ~20% pay roughly 3% of our federal income taxes.

Hence - as of 2018 the top 50% contribute 97% of the federal income taxes paid.


Of course I specifically mention federal income tax - you know, the tax that pays our huge trillion dollar spending budget every year? Yeah that one. So the lefty counter argument to my point here is "b-b-b-but what about <insert other unrelated tax>". Classic case of whataboutism. A local state/county/city/district sales tax has zilch to do with our federal budget.


But hey - why use facts about taxation (especially as they relate to socialist programs you proclaim to idolize) when you can use your feelings instead? Anyhow, buckle up - and sign on the dotted line that you're in favor of jacking up our income taxes and VAT rates, because that is what it takes to pay for that. It's already been said many many times that you can tax the rich at 100% and you STILL wouldn't have enough to pay for all your unicorn programs.
Your link does not confirm the numbers you offer.
 
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ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,404
5,421
126
Concerning Federal Income Taxes? Yes - the majority of the middle class pay nothing.

Roughly speaking here are the facts (as of tax year 2018): https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2018-update/
Bottom ~20% is a net negative on federal income tax (e.g. - They receive more in tax credits than they even pay in)
Next ~20% pay roughly $0.
Next ~20% pay roughly 3% of our federal income taxes.

Hence - as of 2018 the top 50% contribute 97% of the federal income taxes paid.


Of course I specifically mention federal income tax - you know, the tax that pays our huge trillion dollar spending budget every year? Yeah that one. So the lefty counter argument to my point here is "b-b-b-but what about ". Classic case of whataboutism. A local state/county/city/district sales tax has zilch to do with our federal budget.


But hey - why use facts about taxation (especially as they relate to socialist programs you proclaim to idolize) when you can use your feelings instead? Anyhow, buckle up - and sign on the dotted line that you're in favor of jacking up our income taxes and VAT rates, because that is what it takes to pay for that. It's already been said many many times that you can tax the rich at 100% and you STILL wouldn't have enough to pay for all your unicorn programs.
Just moving those goalposts.
and of course you didn't bother to move them far enough to cover your absurd assertion.
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
61,853
14,974
136
Concerning Federal Income Taxes? Yes - the majority of the middle class pay nothing.

Roughly speaking here are the facts (as of tax year 2018): https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2018-update/
Bottom ~20% is a net negative on federal income tax (e.g. - They receive more in tax credits than they even pay in)
Next ~20% pay roughly $0.
Next ~20% pay roughly 3% of our federal income taxes.

Hence - as of 2018 the top 50% contribute 97% of the federal income taxes paid.


Of course I specifically mention federal income tax - you know, the tax that pays our huge trillion dollar spending budget every year? Yeah that one. So the lefty counter argument to my point here is "b-b-b-but what about <insert other unrelated tax>". Classic case of whataboutism. A local state/county/city/district sales tax has zilch to do with our federal budget.


But hey - why use facts about taxation (especially as they relate to socialist programs you proclaim to idolize) when you can use your feelings instead? Anyhow, buckle up - and sign on the dotted line that you're in favor of jacking up our income taxes and VAT rates, because that is what it takes to pay for that. It's already been said many many times that you can tax the rich at 100% and you STILL wouldn't have enough to pay for all your unicorn programs.
If we were to accept your numbers, they are a great demonstration of why we need to combat income inequality. We tax the rich because they have the money. Unless you would prefer a Bolivian economic model (Bolivia being the topic of this thread and Bolivian income inequality being the very reason coups are possible)?
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
22,193
23,266
136

The coup took place after Bolivian opposition leaders were recorded discussing "a plan for social unrest, before and after the general elections, with the aim of preventing President Evo Morales from remaining," according to audio clips published by the Bolivian outlet Erbol. One member of the opposition discussed being in contact with US Senators Ted Cruz, R-Texas., Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and Bob Menendez, D-N.J.

just more american dirty fingers
 

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