Anyone willing to discuss Operation Ajax.. the destruction of Iranian Democracy by UK

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dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
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The start of Islamic Revolution by the UK and their Capitalistic Greed with the help of the US

care to discuss what you Joe or Jane Citizen would have done or how you would have felt if YOU WERE IRANIAN /gasp

Would you have continued to think the USA was some bastion of freedom to be revered and respected if they came in and overthrew your ELECTED leader?

HUH?

LEARN to think outside your borders.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

This topic was posted by the OP months ago, even links the same article.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2075109&highlight=ajax

No need for two threads on the subject.

-Schadenfroh (AT Mod)
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Sure. Churchill wanted our help protect British assets and we agreed. It was one of the worst things we did in the middle east and there is no justification for it. Most of our problems in the region can be traced back to that.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
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you may hate me forever but I sincerely applaud you from the bottom of my heart for at least being willing to admit that

and your reply is the most succinct ever needed

the us public has to be one of the dumbest in the history of civilization and yet we have the most freedom in the history of civilization
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
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any discussion on how you would have reacted if an US Pres were overthrown by foreign militants?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Churchill... We colluded with one of the worst criminals in human history. It's part of the American obsession with the UK and Europe. Why are we willing to destroy others to satisfy European economic or security needs when they are against our own?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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I don't hate you. That's an emotion that isn't appropriate. I do disagree strongly with many of your positions and being crabby I'm not reacting as I should.

Anyway, if someone were to tamper with our government I'd be pissed. To the credit of the Iranian people I don't think they hold a grudge. I consider them distinct from their government. Regarding Ajax it seems far more likely that we would now have the democracies Bush hoped with Iraq. Even then if it weren't for our foolish actions there and the alienating "Axis" speech, the region would be better off as a whole although that is not approval for Saddam.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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How many countries does Iran currently have its fingers in? The Syrian government and Hezbollah in Lebanon are both their puppets, and Iran is doing whatever it can to destabilize/undermine Iraq. Iran has little room to talk or be distraught about others meddling in their affairs in the past.

Let's face it. Countries that are powerful enough meddle in the affairs of others. Ideally it shouldn't be that way but it's been a reality for as long as man has existed.

btw, calling Mossadheg's government "Democratic" simply because he was elected is stretching definitions to their absolute limit. The Shah may have been a corrupt schmuck but Mossadehg was arguably much worse of a schmuck.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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the brits told ike that if mossadegh stayed in charge the commies would take over. the brits really just wanted to keep stealing iranian oil. ike fell for the brits' ruse. though considering how cheap it was to do i have to wonder how stable mossadegh's government was.

i don't know that the ayatollahs wouldn't have taken over anyway. they wouldn't thave been happy with mossadegh, either.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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The Shah may have been a corrupt schmuck but Mossadehg was arguably much worse of a schmuck.

Now there's a disgusting lie. We gave the Shah a vicious security force for his security including things like torture - that's hardly the case with his predecessor. You have no shame.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
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Repost. How many times are you going to post about this.

How much did Operation Ajax 1953 change the Middle East and radicalize Islam?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2075109&highlight=ajax

What was OPERATION AJAX and do they teach our children about it in History Class?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=31579&highlight=ajax


its ok.. I like personal stalkers .. I have one other here .. can I include you too

FWIW... maybe we should just leave history books closed.. is that was you suggest.. never re-open them to find out what the cause of today is?
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
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Repost. How many times are you going to post about this.

How much did Operation Ajax 1953 change the Middle East and radicalize Islam?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2075109&highlight=ajax

What was OPERATION AJAX and do they teach our children about it in History Class?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=31579&highlight=ajax


Enough bravery in you to answer this question

any discussion on how you would have reacted if an US Pres were overthrown by foreign militants?
??
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Now there's a disgusting lie. We gave the Shah a vicious security force for his security including things like torture - that's hardly the case with his predecessor. You have no shame.
Mossadegh moved to dissolve the Parliament (a democratic process) and abolished the Constitutional guarantee of a secret ballot (so he could know if anyone voted against his plans and take care of them accordingly). Yeah, that's the way to "democratically" take care of things. His referendum received 99.9% of the vote when he had nowhere near that amount of support.

Of course, far-left zanies like you don't seem to mind when other far-lefties rig the vote and force their constituents into submission. You only get incensed if the other side should do such a thing.

No shame indeed.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Mossadegh moved to dissolve the Parliament (a democratic process) and abolished the Constitutional guarantee of a secret ballot (so he could know if anyone voted against his plans and take care of them accordingly). Yeah, that's the way to "democratically" take care of things. His referendum received 99.9% of the vote when he had nowhere near that amount of support.

Of course, far-left zanies like you don't seem to mind when other far-lefties rig the vote and force their constituents into submission. You only get incensed if the other side should do such a thing.

No shame indeed.

The topic is your disgusting claim that he was 'much worse than the Shah'. You dishonestly try to change the subject to your rant against Mossadegh to dodge your error.

Iran was moved from democracy to brutal dictatorship by the US under the Shah.

The basic problem was Britain's refusal to pay more than the abusively low rates they had been paying before Iran's Parliament voted to nationalize the industry.

Britain was willing to put the nation of Iran under tyranny to get the low price.

You misrepresent the history as well.

Here's a wikipedia summary:

After negotiations for higher oil royalties failed, on March 15, 1951 the Iran parliament (the Majlis) voted to nationalize Iran's oil industry, and seize control of the British-owned and operated Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. Prime minister General Ali Razmara, elected in June 1950, had opposed the nationalization bill on technical grounds. He was asssassinated on March 7, 1951 by Khalil Tahmasebi, a member of the militant fundamentalist group Fadayan-e Islam. After street protests and under pressure from the Majlis, the Shah appointed Mossadegh, a prominent supporter of oil nationalization, as new prime minister.

Responding to the seizure of the AIOC, the British government announced it would not allow Mossadegh's government to export any oil produced in the formerly British-controlled factories. A blockade of British ships was sent to the Persian Gulf to prevent any attempts by Iran to ship any oil out of the country. An economic stalemate thus ensued, with Mossadegh's government refusing to allow any British involvement in Iran's oil industry, and Britain refusing to allow any oil to leave Iran.

Since Britain had long been Iran's primary oil-consumer, the stalemate was paticularly hard on Iran. While the country had once boasted over a 100 million dollars a year in exports to Britain, after nationalization, the same oil industry began increasing Iran's debt by nearly 10 million dollars a month.

Despite the economic hardships of his nationalization plan, Mossadegh remained popular, and in 1952 was approved by parliament for a second term. Sensing the difficulties of a worsening political and economic climate, he announced that he would request the Shah grant him emergency powers. Thus, during the royal approval of his new cabinet, Mossadegh casually asked the Shah to grant him full control of the military, and Ministry of War. The Shah refused, and Mossadegh announced his resignation.

Ahmed Qavam was appointed as Iran's new prime minister. On the day of his appointment, he announced his intention to resume negotiations with the British to end the oil dispute. This blatant reversal of Mossadegh's plans sparked a massive public outrage. Protestors of all stripes filled the streets, including communists and radical Muslims led by Ayatollah Kashani. Frightened by the unrest, the Shah quickly dismissed Qavam, and re-appointed Mossadegh, granting him the full control of the military he had previously requested.

Let's review - during the economic crisis with Britain, he asked for control of the military to keep order. That's not dissolving parliament, that's not tyranny. Countries' leaders have been known to control the military of their country before. When the Shah refused, he assasin... no, wait, he started a revolu..., no, wait, he resigned.

The people of Iran then liked him and his policies enough that they rioted, and the Shah reversed his decision and put him back in power, with control of the military.

Still no tyranny.

Now, let's go on and see where the tyranny issue started - with the US to overthrow Iran's elected leader, creating opposition and destabilization.

In October of 1952, Mossadegh declared that Britain was "an enemy", and cut all diplomatic relations with the United Kingdom. In November and December 1952, British intelligence officials suggested to American intelligence that the prime minister should be ousted. The new US administration under Dwight Eisenhower and the British government under Winston Churchill agreed to work together toward Mossadegh's removal.

On April 4, 1953, US CIA director Allen W. Dulles approved $1 million to be used "in any way that would bring about the fall of Mossadegh". Soon the CIA's Tehran station started to launch a propaganda compaign against Mossadegh. Finally, according to the New York Times:

In early June, American and British intelligence officials met again, this time in Beirut, and put the finishing touches on the strategy. Soon afterward, the chief of the CIA's Near East and Africa division, Kermit Roosevelt, a grandson of Theodore Roosevelt, arrived in Tehran to direct it.

The plot, known as Operation Ajax, centered around convincing Iran's monarch to use his constitutional authority to dismiss Mossadegh from office, as he had attempted some months earlier. But the Shah was uncooperative, and it would take much persuasion and many meetings to successfully execute the plan. Meanwhile, the CIA stepped up its operations. According to Dr. Donald N. Wilber, who was involved in the plot to remove Mossadegh from power, in early August, Iranian CIA operatives pretending to be socialists threatened Muslim leaders with "savage punishment if they opposed Mossadegh," thereby giving the impression that Mossadegh was cracking down on dissent, and stirring anti-Mossadegh sentiments within the religious community.

Mossadegh became aware of the plots against him and grew increasingly wary of conspirators acting within his government. He set up a national referendum to dissolve parliament. The vote was clearly rigged, with Mossadegh claiming a 99.9 percent victory for the "yes" side. This was in turn cited by US- and British-funded opposition press as a reason to remove Mossadegh from power. Parliament was suspended indefinitely, and Mossadegh's "emergency powers" were extended.

To prevent the plot from succeeding Mossadegh knew he would have to continue consolidating his power. Since Iran's monarch was the only person who constitutionally outranked him, he perceived Iran's 33-year-old king to be his biggest threat. In August of 1952 Mossadegh attempted to convince the Shah to leave the country. The Shah refused, and fired the Prime Minister, in accordance with the foreign intelligence plan. Mossadegh responded by ordering troops to seize the Imperial palace and drive out the king. Eager to avoid conflict, the Shah once again quickly folded, and accompanied by his wife, quickly fled Iran.

Once again, massive protests broke out across the nation. Anti- and pro-monarchy protestors violently clashed in the streets, leaving almost 300 dead. Aided by the U.S. CIA and British MI5, the pro-monarchy forces quickly gained the upper hand, stormed government offices and ransacked the prime minister's official residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on August 19, 1953.

General Fazlollah Zahedi, who had been the CIA's original choice to replace Mossadegh, proclaimed himself as the new prime minister. The Shah himself, who by now was living a comfortable exile in Italy, was rushed back to Iran and returned to the throne.

This is pretty standard how to overthrow a government stuff - do things that push the government to take stronger security measures and then use those measures to attack the government as repressive. It's how the Croats got the war to defeat the Serbs started, doing things like killing Serbian police and other terrorism until the Serbs retaliated strongly.

It's the basic reason behind 9/11 - bin Laden attacking the US to try to force the US into a big retaliation in the middle east that bin Laden hoped would make Muslims hate the US.

So that's what happened here - the US spreading *lies* about Mossadegh created opposition to him in the midst of this crisis that led him to take stronger measures against revolution, and those measures were then used by the US and UK to attack him and build further opposition, and so on.

Had the US not been there destabilizing the government with lies, was Mossadegh 'disbanding the parliament'? No.

But none of this has to do with the issue, your disgusting statement that Mossadegh was 'far worse' than the Shah, which you did not answer with your rant on Mossadegh.

Mossadegh could be terrible, worse than in your inaccurate post, and you would still be disgustingly wrong.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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The topic is your disgusting claim that he was 'much worse than the Shah'. You dishonestly try to change the subject to your rant against Mossadegh to dodge your error.

Iran was moved from democracy to brutal dictatorship by the US under the Shah.
Actually, what I specifically said was:

"btw, calling Mossadheg's government "Democratic" simply because he was elected is stretching definitions to their absolute limit. The Shah may have been a corrupt schmuck but Mossadehg was arguably much worse of a schmuck."

Notice as well that the sentence, which you bastardized, was part of a larger construct called a paragraph. Notice as well that the context the paragraph was in regard to being "Democratic."

The one attempting to change the subject here was you.

btw, how did Mossadegh originally become Prime Minister? Oh, that's right. He wasn't elected by the people, he was appointed by the Shah to the Premiereship and was elected to the position of Prime Minister by a democratic Parliament that only came to prominence under the Pahlavi Dynasty.

Should I also detail all the modernization and rights to the common people, including women, that were established under that dynasty?

You seem to want to pretend that Democracy and good to the people only came about when Mossadegh came to power. That's a blindered view of Iranian history if there ever was one.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Actually, what I specifically said was:

"btw, calling Mossadheg's government "Democratic" simply because he was elected is stretching definitions to their absolute limit. The Shah may have been a corrupt schmuck but Mossadehg was arguably much worse of a schmuck."

Notice as well that the sentence, which you bastardized, was part of a larger construct called a paragraph. Notice as well that the context the paragraph was in regard to being "Democratic."

The one attempting to change the subject here was you.

btw, how did Mossadegh originally become Prime Minister? Oh, that's right. He wasn't elected by the people, he was appointed by the Shah to the Premiereship and was elected to the position of Prime Minister by a democratic Parliament that only came to prominence under the Pahlavi Dynasty.

Should I also detail all the modernization and rights to the common people, including women, that were established under that dynasty?

You seem to want to pretend that Democracy and good to the people only came about when Mossadegh came to power. That's a blindered view of Iranian history if there ever was one.

No, you said:

"The Shah may have been a corrupt schmuck but Mossadehg was arguably much worse of a schmuck."

That is the disgusting, false statement you are still trying to dodge.

Adding the word "arguably" doesn't help you. The word "arguably" is to note things where there's some question whether they're quite true, but a good case can be made they are.

For example, saying 'Obama is arguably worse on non-combatant rights than Bush' would refer to there being ways he is and ways he isn't, and you can argue who is worse.

But saying 'Obama is arguably worse on human rights than Hitler' is a problem that 'arguably' doesn't address. Bolding 'arguably' to try to make it do so doesn't, either.

You end by completely inventing a statement and claiming I made it that I didn't make.

So all we really have is more of you not addressing how you made the disgusting statement that Mossadegh was a 'worse schmuck' than the Shah.
 
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