Question Anyone using ARM CPUs/SOCs?

[whm1974]

I've been looking at Pine64.org products, mainly the upcoming Pinebook Pro and PineTAB, also about reading the ROXK64 Pro as well. Awhile back I was considering getting Raspberry Pi 3B+ for getting into SBCs, I really not sure what I could use for it for. And yes a low cost notebook, even ARM based ones will be far more useful for.

Other then my cheap smartphone, I have no experience with non-x86 systems. So how much usability with reasonable performance I can expect out ARM SOCs such at the Rockchip RK3399 Hexa-Core such as the Pinebook Pro and ROCK64 Pro uses

While I intend to buy the Pinebook Pro, I am wondering about ARM SOCs and ARM based PCs in general using Linux.

 

[Thala]

@Thala Might be working looking into once the 855 is available, then. Given the heat coming down on Huawei these days, I don't have high hopes for Kirin 980 desktop/laptop systems making it to the US anytime soon.

Ah I got bad info then. Thanks.

Regarding Windows and Kirin the issue will be driver support - with Qualcomm SoCs you are getting a full set of Windows drivers including DX12 GPU drivers. With just standard display drivers it falls back to full SW emulation of the Direct3d functionality.

 

[Shivansps]

The problem with ARM SoC in general is that ARM is not a miracle of nature, it is designed to have very low idle and standby power, and you need high end ARM socs in order to run Windows 10 decently. And thats not cheap OR low power when you actually want to do some work. You just cant run W10 on a quad core A53 w/1-2GB of ram like a cheap android phone and end up with something that you could actually use.

I have a RPI 3B+ and its slow as hell, its not to be used as a linux desktop PC, altrought it probably feel a lot faster with more ram and eMMC instead of a SD card, but it whould not be a $35 device anymore...

And drivers is a big point here as well, for example you can TRY to run W10 on the RPI 3, but it has no drivers whasorever, not even for the SD card reader or the USB hub.

And the problem with Windows 10 ARM is only having x86 support when a lot of programs and games are not even releasing x86 bins anymore.

So i dont know, any ARM soc powerfull enoght in CPU/GPU to run Windows and Windows apps, coupled with MINIMUM 4GB of ram(and i would not buy that), the floor is 8GB with 12 and 16GB versions, its not going to be cheap in ANY WAY. And on top of that you need to consider the cost of driver deveploment as Qualcomm is the only one doing it.

ALL THAT to Windows 10 with only x86 support with a little better idle/standby power than an Atom... i dont know if it worth it.

 

[Thala]

The problem with ARM SoC in general is that ARM is not a miracle of nature, it is designed to have very low idle and standby power, and you need high end ARM socs in order to run Windows 10 decently.

One often believed mistake. ARM cores have a very high efficiency not just in idle but when running. You are able to beat x86 cores in benchmarks with a fraction of power.

And the problem with Windows 10 ARM is only having x86 support when a lot of programs and games are not even releasing x86 bins anymore.

Emulation of x86 code is just a stop-gap solution - something Microsoft put in just in addition to the native runtime libraries (e.g. ARM32 and ARM64) - just to bridge the application gap. However it is relatively easy to target native ARM64 with the available toolchains - without any code modifications.

Interesting anecdote in this context: I was lately compiling DosBox for native ARM64 for Win32. DosBox as far is a 32bit application and the code is not designed to be compiled for 64 bit architectures. The only code changes i had to do were related to the fact that i was targeting a 64 bit architecture. (e.g. the changes were totally the same for x64 and ARM64 targets.)

 

[whm1974]

Well I for one will not be Running Windows 10 on the ARM based Pinebook Pro I will be buying. But Linux instead.

 

[soresu]

ARM Midgard and Bifrost GPU support just merged to Mesa with the new Panfrost driver. Its only OpenGL, but a good start towards open ARM GPU support on Linux systems. Presumably, this should apply to all those Kirin SOC's out there in phones and SBC dev boards.

Link here.

Edit:- Missed the part at the end, the actual graphics support is yet to be mainlined.

 

[whm1974]

ARM Midgard and Bifrost GPU support just merged to Mesa with the new Panfrost driver. Its only OpenGL, but a good start towards open ARM GPU support on Linux systems. Presumably, this should apply to all those Kirin SOC's out there in phones and SBC dev boards.

Link here.

Edit:- Missed the part at the end, the actual graphics support is yet to be mainlined.

Be as that may be, that is still a step towards Linux support.

Is ARM Holdings, Inc(is this correct?) still strongly pursuing ARM CPUs in PCs?

 

[Nothingness]

CPU for laptop definitely are on their roadmap: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13226/arm-unveils-client-cpu-performance-roadmap

 

[Shivansps]

Well I for one will not be Running Windows 10 on the ARM based Pinebook Pro I will be buying. But Linux instead.

Well with enoght ram should be decent, still 4GB LPDDR4 is on the low side these days.

 

[Rifter]

Ive got 3 Pi's, one the newest b+ version. They all work great for their assigned tasks but i would not consider using any of them for a main PC or laptop, they just plain are not powerful enough.

I have one setup as a emulator box running retropi, works great for this task.

I have one setup as a Pihole DNS server/ad/blocker, this one is also hooked up to my TV and running a full GUI OS, i use it occasionally when i need to view webpages on my living room TV. Its slow and painful to use, like using a early dual core CPU, i would compare it to a intel Exxxx series dualcore, sure it was fine in its day but its day has long since came and gone.

My last one is running octoprint for my 2 3d printers so nothing more than a print server. It does this job very well.

I also used one for a Kodi box for a while, and it worked but you could tell it was under powered for the job, i replaced it with a Nvidia shield.

I think arm has a long way to go if they want to break into the mainstream laptop market, i think they really need to focus on price first and keep it under $200-300, because for $300-500$ you can get a real capable x86 system that blows ARM's performance out of the water and has full software support, so these are only going to sell if they are dirt cheap to reflect their poor performance and poor software support(compared to x86). Then they can raise prices as they raise performance and build up the software support, because one thing i learned with my Nvidia shield is that most android apps thats run fine on phones do not handle the switch to TV/Monitor reolution very well and are broken when using them on Android TV OS so software is something ARM really needs to work on if they are going to push out laptops.

 

[Thala]

I think arm has a long way to go if they want to break into the mainstream laptop market, i think they really need to focus on price first and keep it under $200-300, because for $300-500$ you can get a real capable x86 system that blows ARM's performance out of the water and has full software support, so these are only going to sell if they are dirt cheap to reflect their poor performance and poor software support(compared to x86). Then they can raise prices as they raise performance and build up the software support, because one thing i learned with my Nvidia shield is that most android apps thats run fine on phones do not handle the switch to TV/Monitor reolution very well and are broken when using them on Android TV OS so software is something ARM really needs to work on if they are going to push out laptops.

You are mixing quite a few things up. ARM is just IP provider and has no meaningful impact on device pricing. And then there is no such a thing as "ARMs performance" as there exists quite a range of options. Just on the Application processor side we talk between Cortex A53 (like in the Raspberry PI 3) and the Cortex A76, which roughly matches per-clock-performance of an Intel core CPU, more than a factor of 5. Finally ARM has no impact on Android supporting different resolution and screen orientation. With the current ARM Windows Machines there is no such limitation - they work like any other Windows machine with a second screen and so on.

 

[Rifter]

You are mixing quite a few things up. ARM is just IP provider and has no meaningful impact on device pricing. And then there is no such a thing as "ARMs performance" as there exists quite a range of options. Just on the Application processor side we talk between Cortex A53 (like in the Raspberry PI 3) and the Cortex A76, which roughly matches per-clock-performance of an Intel core CPU, more than a factor of 5. Finally ARM has no impact on Android supporting different resolution and screen orientation. With the current ARM Windows Machines there is no such limitation - they work like any other Windows machine with a second screen and so on.

I was not aware they have ARM cpu's running x86 code yet, thats huge if they do, and will go a long way to help adoption.

 

[Thala]

I was not aware they have ARM cpu's running x86 code yet, thats huge if they do, and will go a long way to help adoption.

Lol, no...ARM CPUs natively only execute...well ARM code. Not sure where you read this in my post?
Thing is the Windows ARM machines have an x86 emulation layer, which comes with a performance hit when you execute x86 code. This means, x86 programs will run, albeit quite a bit slower. On the Linux side this is typically much less of a problem as many programs come with sources.

 

[Shivansps]

One often believed mistake. ARM cores have a very high efficiency not just in idle but when running. You are able to beat x86 cores in benchmarks with a fraction of power.

In what benchmarks? Last time i checked, the Qualcomm 835 on Windows 10 was not looking good AT ALL.

Emulation of x86 code is just a stop-gap solution - something Microsoft put in just in addition to the native runtime libraries (e.g. ARM32 and ARM64) - just to bridge the application gap. However it is relatively easy to target native ARM64 with the available toolchains - without any code modifications.

Interesting anecdote in this context: I was lately compiling DosBox for native ARM64 for Win32. DosBox as far is a 32bit application and the code is not designed to be compiled for 64 bit architectures. The only code changes i had to do were related to the fact that i was targeting a 64 bit architecture. (e.g. the changes were totally the same for x64 and ARM64 targets.)

If you are waiting for apps to be recompiled for ARM64 on Windows ill suggest you to get a very comfortable chair. Yes is possible, altrought im not sure it will be as easy as re-compile on every case. At any rate, it needs to be a demand first.

The only reason ARM can run x86 apps on Windows now is because Microsoft ported the system they already use to run x86 apps on 64bit systems. Dont forget about that.
Microsoft is going to support x64 apps on ARM64 some day trought, but they need to develop the entire system from 0.

 

[Rifter]

Lol, no...ARM CPUs natively only execute...well ARM code. Not sure where you read this in my post?
Thing is the Windows ARM machines have an x86 emulation layer, which comes with a performance hit when you execute x86 code. This means, x86 programs will run, albeit quite a bit slower. On the Linux side this is typically much less of a problem as many programs come with sources.

Sorry i misunderstood the last sentence then.

 

[DrMrLordX]

In what benchmarks? Last time i checked, the Qualcomm 835 on Windows 10 was not looking good AT ALL.

Qualcomm already has the 850 (845 in wolf's clothing) in Win10 laptops now, so you're looking at dated benchmarks. The 8cx is their next Win10 chip which is the real one to watch, since it's A76-based which (in my opinion) is a milestone for ARM CPUs. Personally, I wouldn't take anything older than an 8cx, Snapdragon 855, Kirin 980, or Apple A12/A12x too seriously.

 

[Shivansps]

Qualcomm already has the 850 (845 in wolf's clothing) in Win10 laptops now, so you're looking at dated benchmarks. The 8cx is their next Win10 chip which is the real one to watch, since it's A76-based which (in my opinion) is a milestone for ARM CPUs. Personally, I wouldn't take anything older than an 8cx, Snapdragon 855, Kirin 980, or Apple A12/A12x too seriously.

It was a 4C A73 + 4C A53, its not THAT old VS a older Atom Based Quad Core Celeron that is probably not even running at 2ghz on all cores.... this is really NOT looking good AT ALL.

There is the 850 with 4C A75 + 4C A55 now OK... and the 8cx is coming, but there is no benchmarks that i could find.

The problem with this is that Qualcomm is using a really high end soc, like the 835 and now the 850 and they are not going to gain any marketshare with that, and the whole reason this is happening is that performance is just not there yet. They need to start at the low end and do something like that Pinebook Pro, but from what im seeing i dont think a low end soc with a quad core A55 could drive a Windows 10 device.

In fact the only device with the 850 is the Yoga C630?

 

[SPBHM]

i would compare it to a intel Exxxx series dualcore, sure it was fine in its day but its day has long since came and gone.

you are being very optimistic with that, even the E2140 still has a significant performance lead on ST.
the raspberry pi, even the latest is very weak, not a good example of current ARM SoC,

even for the price I think they should be doing better by now...

 

[cbn]

By the way www.System76.com is working on a high end ARM based Laptop and desktop.

I really like the modular design mentioned at 13:57 through 14:57 into the video.

They are going to have a chassis controller (handles trackpad, keyboard, power button, etc.) and then have the compute component be separate.

 

[whm1974]

Very interesting about the modular design at 13:57 through 14:57 into the video.

They are going to have a chassis controller (handles trackpad, keyboard, power button, etc.) and then have the compute component be separate.

Good luck to System76 with their planned ARM based products. I wonder if the firmware will be CoreBoot?
https://www.coreboot.org/

 

[Nothingness]

It was a 4C A73 + 4C A53, its not THAT old VS a older Atom Based Quad Core Celeron that is probably not even running at 2ghz on all cores.... this is really NOT looking good AT ALL.

What a surprise: a system running a simulator for x86 programs is slower than a real x86

What is really not looking good at all is the lack of native programs for W10. But that is mostly not applicable to Linux systems which is what @whm1974 is looking for after all.

 

[whm1974]

What a surprise: a system running a simulator for x86 programs is slower than a real x86

What is really not looking good at all is the lack of native programs for W10. But that is mostly not applicable to Linux systems which is what @whm1974 is looking for after all.

I wonder if I could run RISC OS on the Pinebook Pro? I would see what it is like at least, but I am pretty much a Linux guy.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It was a 4C A73 + 4C A53, its not THAT old VS a older Atom Based Quad Core Celeron that is probably not even running at 2ghz on all cores.... this is really NOT looking good AT ALL.

Meh. Obsess over old ARM scores if you want. Like I said, taking anything older than A76 seriously is not a great idea, unless you're in the phone/tablet space, or you want tiny low-power SBCs.

There is the 850 with 4C A75 + 4C A55 now OK... and the 8cx is coming, but there is no benchmarks that i could find.

As is so often the case with ARM SoCs, the main focus is on geekbench:

https://wccftech.com/snapdragon-850-nowhere-close-performance-a12-bionic/

Snapdragon 850 ain't all that. It seems to be having problems with throttling or something which limits its capabilities in multicore mode. A12 is clearly superior. Qualcomm has a ways to go. The 8cx is their first shot at competing with at least Apple's chips, along with the Kirin 980.

The main thing to keep in mind is that Apple, Huawei, Qualcomm, and others are advancing the state of ARM processors rather quickly.

In fact the only device with the 850 is the Yoga C630?

There are a few others. The main one is the C630, though. Soon the Snapdragon 850 devices will be an afterthought. Qualcomm and MS are trying to lay the groundwork for Win10S + universal windows applications on ARM in advance of real hardware offerings.

 

[soresu]

To clarify the earlier Panfrost open GPU news, as far as I am aware it is not developed by anyone at ARM at all - though with any luck progress and developer interest here might prompt ARM to be more favourable to helping them, if not opening up their own drivers (which is as unlikely as nVidia doing so currently).

 

[Thala]

In what benchmarks? Last time i checked, the Qualcomm 835 on Windows 10 was not looking good AT ALL.

What a surprise when the tester compares an Snapdragon 835 running emulated code vs an Intel machine running native code! Meanwhile you can run various native ARM64 benchmarks, which show the higher performance/power ratio. Thing is, if you want to have the highest performance under a below 5W thermal envelope, there is no way around an ARM SoC.
I did post few PovRay benchmark numbers in another thread.

If you are waiting for apps to be recompiled for ARM64 on Windows ill suggest you to get a very comfortable chair. Yes is possible, altrought im not sure it will be as easy as re-compile on every case. At any rate, it needs to be a demand first.

As i said, i am compiling what i need myself. No worry about waiting.

 

[whm1974]

Thanks guys, I found your commits insightful as I am totally unfamiliar with ARM SOCs and it's ecosystem. I am hoping that I'm not expecting too much out of the later to be released Pinebook Pro. At least however for only $200 I will a cheap Linux notebook with decent decent battery life and screen.