Anyone live in a townhouse?

[Exterous]

Worst case is you either rip out the existing drywall and insulation and install some high STC rated insulation or you fur out the wall and install the same high STC insulation. The only problem with ripping out the existing drywall is that the wall separating your townhouses is fire rated so you'll have to use Type X rated rock and make sure all the joints are fire-taped or fire-caulked.

Furing out w/ 2x4s and installing 2 layers of Johns Manville (or similar manufacturer) sound rated unfaced batt insulation will yield a pretty quiet room. You'll just have to keep the bass down.

If anything I expect the bass will be the issue. You can only really get good low frequencey control with mass. Sure you can spend a lot of money (compared to another sheet of drywall) and get really dense insulation but he would be better served with a double drywall setup than more insulation. It's even better if you dont attach the new framing to the existing wall and use RISC clips. Sound escapes through openings so this would also give him the cahnce to build backer boxes to all of the protrusions in the wall (outlet boxes)

purebeast0- part of the issue is that what is loud is subjective. You may say you don't want to blast it 24/7 but the volume you do choose happens to be 100 decibles . Also - people's definitions of 'nice' vary. If my chest cage doesn't rattle when something explodes - thats not a nice HT setup

Realistically high freq sounds won't be a huge issue unless you have it really loud. What type of sub do you have?

FWIW I have been in a townhouse before and the bass from my VRP-1200 was easily audible at all but the lowest settings even though we never really heard them talking or the volume from their TVs

 

[squirrel dog]

I lived in a townhouse in the '80's,dropped my .45 on the barrel end,it went off in the stairwell.Neighbors never heard it.I figured it was the concrete firewall that blocked the discharge noise.

 

[purbeast0]

I live in a townhouse that's not an end unit. We rarely hear our neighbors, although I can sometimes faintly hear their home theater. We have a modest HT setup but we generally don't crank it up too loudly and we've never had complaints. I wouldn't plan on an SVS sub setup, but otherwise I wouldn't worry too much about the noise levels.

whats an SVS sub setup?

right now I have a decent but fairly old surround sound system, that i haven't used in nearly 5 years living in an apartment. it's a JBL setup i bought when I worked at best buy back in like 2002. it has a floor firing 12" sub for now, but I'd like to get a newer setup for sure. maybe not right away but at some point i want to upgrade.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Old home will need more maintenance and upkeep costs. I just bought a house that was built in '75. I'm pretty sure my home will be around years after Im dead but having said that they aren't like a new home. New homes come standard with lots of stuff that old homes didn't have unless they were upgraded such as much more insulation, double pane windows, etc.. Also things like foundation, plumbing, electrical weren't nearly as well built back then. Make sure the house has copper wiring for electric and copper plumbing. If you're not ready to spend money and have upgrades done then get a new home. I got an older home because the neighborhood is more mature (most people living on my street have been there for years, more mature trees) and it's not just a cookie cutter home like all the others.

 

[Exterous]

whats an SVS sub setup?

Well known sub maker. Their subs tend to be not so much on the quiet side

 

[bobdole369]

my wife and I are currently house hunting (first time home buyers) and we really liked this townhouse we saw yesterday. it's very spacious, especially for the area we're looking to purchase, and it is very well maintained. it has an extremely open floor plan, a large kitchen, large master bedroom with walk in closet and bathroom in it, 3 total bedrooms. most of these are things my wife and I really want. it is in a quiet dead end street, and the backyard faces nature with no one living behind us.

the thing i'm wondering mostly about is that this is not an end unit, so we would have neighbors on the sides of us. the townhouses are 3 stories, and the bedrooms in ours is on the 3rd floor. i'm assuming that the others are as well.

my main concern is that i really want to have a nice theatre setup with some good surround sound. this would be going in the basement for sure. if we do pursue this house, i plan on knocking on the neighbors doors and simply telling them we're interested in purchasing the home next to them and we're just wondering how the sound output is for them with other neighbors.

so that is my only concern really.

those of you that live in townhomes ... is there anything you wish you knew before you moved into one? is there anything that you don't like about it that you regret purchasing it? how is the sound from the neighbors? (i realize that will vary house to house) is there stuff about it that you like over a detached home?

I lived in an end unit and I could still hear the old neighbors having loud sex. I can still hear it to this day... "Damn Jolene that pussy be so fine!"

You'll get banged on the wall like a frickin 10th grader if you have anything more than an Aiwa desktop unit with 15Wx2 bookshelfs.

Seriously - if you don't soundproof you will annoy the shit out of your neighbors and they will ensure they do the same for you.

Even if you soundproof it won't help the bass very much. You're doomed to quietness in a townhouse.

 

[roguerower]

there is no drywall in the basement where this would be going. it was cinderblock walls that were visible.

Sorry, missed that part of your previous post. Makes things a lot easier however.

i'd think so but something I would have to find out.

one thing is that this won't be an all enclosed room. the TV (and speakers) will be going against a wall that is facing one of the neighbors. and then on one side of where we sit is a set of french doors that goes outside onto the patio. would having those doors there make it less insulated and more noise escape in this instance?

but again, I'm not looking to BLAST shit 24/7 heh. i just want to be able to watch movies at night time and not worry about it being too loud, but also enjoy a nice surround sound. and yea i realize that there is absolutely no way on here to tell me if it will or wont be too loud to the neighbors, so im just trying to hear other people's experiences.

That shouldn't matter since you're saying you won't be blasting it.

If anything I expect the bass will be the issue. You can only really get good low frequencey control with mass. Sure you can spend a lot of money (compared to another sheet of drywall) and get really dense insulation but he would be better served with a double drywall setup than more insulation. It's even better if you dont attach the new framing to the existing wall and use RISC clips. Sound escapes through openings so this would also give him the cahnce to build backer boxes to all of the protrusions in the wall (outlet boxes)

purebeast0- part of the issue is that what is loud is subjective. You may say you don't want to blast it 24/7 but the volume you do choose happens to be 100 decibles . Also - people's definitions of 'nice' vary. If my chest cage doesn't rattle when something explodes - thats not a nice HT setup Agreed

Realistically high freq sounds won't be a huge issue unless you have it really loud. What type of sub do you have?

FWIW I have been in a townhouse before and the bass from my VRP-1200 was easily audible at all but the lowest settings even though we never really heard them talking or the volume from their TVs

So you're suggesting that he just throw up a double layer of rock instead of using sound insulation?

Since you have a CMU block wall already in place, a framed wall (steel or wood) with STC rated insulation (possibly non-stc rated, would have to look at the ASTM to be sure) and a 1/2 layer of rock will yield a partition with at least a 60+ STC rating (really good). If you need something to dampen the vibrations coming off the bass why not use a thick rubber mat?

 

[Exterous]

So you're suggesting that he just throw up a double layer of rock instead of using sound insulation?

Since you have a CMU block wall already in place, a framed wall (steel or wood) with STC rated insulation (possibly non-stc rated, would have to look at the ASTM to be sure) and a 1/2 layer of rock will yield a partition with at least a 60+ STC rating (really good). If you need something to dampen the vibrations coming off the bass why not use a thick rubber mat?

Everything I have ever read had shown that mass has more of an effect on sound dampening than insulation esp when looked at from a $ perspective. What is the price that you are thinking the insulation would be?

The vibrations from the sub are going into more than just the floor (Hence the sound right? ). I don't think a rubber mat will do anything for the vibrations in the air

While I am certainly open to evidence to the contrary Ethan Weiner, Ted White and others have provided a lot of information supporting this view over at AVS forums.

 

[roguerower]

I'm going off of my experience. I just finished building a 48 unit (2 bedrooms, kitchen, bathroom) barracks where the walls separating each bedroom from each other were required to have an STC rating of 50. Upon completion of construction, you had to yell pretty damn loud to hear someone through a wall. This was with 3" steel studs, 5/8" Type X rock, and STC rated insulation.

If the sub will be sitting on a concrete slab then there will be less of a chance of the sound carrying through the structural elements than if it was sitting on a wood framed floor. Adding further dampening for those vibrations will help further. Why are hydronic or domestic water pumps always installed on vibration dampening pads? To eliminate the vibrations felt through the structure. The sound waves travelling through the air are reduced because of the mass that they must travel through but the mass can be reduced by using products specifically made for sound attenuating purposes.

Take a look at this: http://www.specjm.com/products/unfaced2/soundcontrolbatts.asp

 

[Red Squirrel]

I almost bought one, I actually put an offer but they wanted more. I'm glad I never went with it. Owning a real house with a property is much more fun. I can crank a movie or music without worrying about bothering anyone.

 

[Exterous]

I'm going off of my experience. I just finished building a 48 unit (2 bedrooms, kitchen, bathroom) barracks where the walls separating each bedroom from each other were required to have an STC rating of 50. Upon completion of construction, you had to yell pretty damn loud to hear someone through a wall. This was with 3" steel studs, 5/8" Type X rock, and STC rated insulation.

If the sub will be sitting on a concrete slab then there will be less of a chance of the sound carrying through the structural elements than if it was sitting on a wood framed floor. Adding further dampening for those vibrations will help further. Why are hydronic or domestic water pumps always installed on vibration dampening pads? To eliminate the vibrations felt through the structure. The sound waves travelling through the air are reduced because of the mass that they must travel through but the mass can be reduced by using products specifically made for sound attenuating purposes.

Take a look at this: http://www.specjm.com/products/unfaced2/soundcontrolbatts.asp

The first problem with STC is it is a single rating that covers a range of frequencies. The most troublesome will be the low frequencies which are going to be his biggest issue. Poor low freq performance can be offset by a better mid/high performance in STC ratings. Your yelling would not occur at the freqs we would be most concerned about

http://www.greengluecompany.com/understandingSoundproofing.php

Here are some charts with full freq graphs with drywall (and green glue)
http://www.greengluecompany.com/upgradingExistingWalls.php

And here with insulation:
http://www.greengluecompany.com/insulationCommonWall.php

You can see that even when using dense insulation the effects on the low range freqs are minimal

When looking here:
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
I wasn't able to find their 'Sound Control Batts' but you can see that they all tend to have issues with the low freq absorption. The typical recommendation is to get 4" of the highest density mineral wool/ridgid fiberglass insulation and have a 4" air gap behind it for the best results. In my experience this is a significantly higher cost than adding another layer of drywall and green glue. I would be very curious to know the cost of this material. A common material used for sound control would be OC 703 which is about $30 for a 2'x4'x4" sheet although you can get mineral wool cheaper

Here is a thread discussing sound proofing and the effects on certain types of insulation
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-1017460.html
Ted White, Bpape, and Denis Erskine have been doing acoustics professionally for years and have done everything from high profile recording studios to ultra high end Home Theaters

 

[roguerower]

Did you read the AVS thread before you sent it to me? Exact excerpt from Ted White:

This has been discused for years, and we've looked at all available data. There just is no data that supports their assertions. That's Terry's point.

You can't blame the roxul guy. That's what he was told. You hear the same blanket assertions from the cellulose people and foam people. They are all told to tell people they have the best insulation.

The NRC in Canada put this all to rest in their big study IR 693. Low density is better than high density. Open cell is better than closed cell. Again in truth cellulose, mineral and fiberglass are all close, but fiberglass was the marginal winner in the low frequencies.

The good news is that fiberglass is not only the best choice, but the cheapest.

This individual is agreeing with me. A dense material DOES NOT do a better job at blocking sound. The reason that fiberglass insulation is a cost effective measure at disrupting sound is because of the numerous air cavities that are inherent in the material.

Again, from Ted White:

For our purposes standard fiberglass is less expensive and better in the low frequencies where we need it the most.

There are multiple ways of going about this and it depends on the homeowner. Yes, STC rating is meant for medium to high frequencies, but a large part of the low frequency noises heard are transmitted through the structure. If the bass is sitting on a slab-on-grade and the sound waves have to move through a 8" CMU block wall, a double layer of rock or a furred out wall will do the trick. The sound batts from Owen Corning are shown as having a rating of .48 @ 125hz when 3.5" thick. Couple that with a layer of rock and the neighbors shouldn't have anything to complain about. Not to mention that with a furred out wall the homeowners can hide the cables for the HT setup.

 

[pontifex]

I brought up the idea of buying a townhouse awhile back and everyone who posted in the thread so no, it was a bad idea.

 

[Exterous]

Did you read the AVS thread before you sent it to me? Exact excerpt from Ted White:

This has been discused for years, and we've looked at all available data. There just is no data that supports their assertions. That's Terry's point.

You can't blame the roxul guy. That's what he was told. You hear the same blanket assertions from the cellulose people and foam people. They are all told to tell people they have the best insulation.

The NRC in Canada put this all to rest in their big study IR 693. Low density is better than high density. Open cell is better than closed cell. Again in truth cellulose, mineral and fiberglass are all close, but fiberglass was the marginal winner in the low frequencies.

The good news is that fiberglass is not only the best choice, but the cheapest.

This individual is agreeing with me. A dense material DOES NOT do a better job at blocking sound. The reason that fiberglass insulation is a cost effective measure at disrupting sound is because of the numerous air cavities that are inherent in the material.

Again, from Ted White:

For our purposes standard fiberglass is less expensive and better in the low frequencies where we need it the most.

There are multiple ways of going about this and it depends on the homeowner. Yes, STC rating is meant for medium to high frequencies, but a large part of the low frequency noises heard are transmitted through the structure. If the bass is sitting on a slab-on-grade and the sound waves have to move through a 8" CMU block wall, a double layer of rock or a furred out wall will do the trick. The sound batts from Owen Corning are shown as having a rating of .48 @ 125hz when 3.5" thick. Couple that with a layer of rock and the neighbors shouldn't have anything to complain about. Not to mention that with a furred out wall the homeowners can hide the cables for the HT setup.

Did YOU read the thread?

If anyone has data that says there is something better than the cheapest fiberglass you can get your hands on, please send it my way. I have yet to see any insulation installed in a wall test any better than cheap fiberglass. Having said that, fiberglass, mineral wool and cellulose are all fairly comparable.

He is referring to low density INSULATION compared to high density INSULATION. Perhaps you should read the post that Ted White was referring to:

He said that the mineral wool should be a bit better for bass control because it's denser than the pink stuff.

Ask him for the complete 3rd party lab report that clearly shows this. Send it on to me. If he is correct, I will mail you a $20 bill American

Again this is referring to INSULATION. Besides I never said he should add DENSITY - I said MASS

I am not sure how it would be agreeing with youwhen the part you quoted in bold straight up says he should go with the cheap pink stuff - not some sound batt

And again I am curious as to the cost of the Owens Corning material. It has been my experience that it will be SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive. I could be wrong but I also believe that is the NRC value for that frequency which is a different value than an STC value. We also have to keep in mind that while there are values lsited for 125Hz, you will find a lot of movies and music include frequencies well below this

Look - I am not trying to say that he shouldn't insulate the wall - just that the added costs of going with a specific 'sounds batt' or some such rather than standard pink fluffy cheap is not worth it and that he would be much better served by taking the money saved and add a second layer of drywall (esp when coupled with an acoustical caulk) and keep the framing off of the existing basement wall

I would be curious if you have any data on what the mass spring resonance of CMU is. One of the benefits of adding insulation as it lowers that value. If you happen to hit this value with your movies or music they will definately hear what you are listening too. This can be a difficulat task - hence my recommendation to keep the new walls decoupled from the existing walls