anyone here a kerio 2.1.5 fan and depressed it won't work in vista?

kindest

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Dec 15, 2001
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I for one do not trust Microsoft's built in firewall and I've always used and loved Kerio 2.1.5 (it's free btw and awesome) and am super depressed it will not work with vista.

I won't upgrade till vista till I can find something like Kerio that will work. Anyone here have any success stories with firewalls + vista.
 

RebateMonger

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Dec 24, 2005
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I haven't played with Vista's firewall, but it's my understanding that it's two-way. As such, I'd question the need for a 3rd-party firewall.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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For what its worth---its my understanding the jetico firewall is very good---but a nightmare to configure---and now I am depressed that my sygate 5.5 won't work either in Vista.
But by the time I switch to vista--hell may have frozen over and better firewalls will exits.
 

kindest

Platinum Member
Dec 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: stash
I for one do not trust Microsoft's built in firewall
Why?

the fact that everything they make needs patches and updates.
don't get me wrong I love windows and am not a hater but
i see conflict of interests in the future about programs "calling home"
and windows being a partner and allowing it. I don't like sharing any information
which is why I love kerio cause anything new tries to do anything online
we get this wonderful popup saying deny/permit set rule for this.

maybe vista will do it i haven't really fiddled with it all that much...just mad cause i miss kerio. :)
 

RebateMonger

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Dec 24, 2005
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Originally posted by: kindest
the fact that everything they make needs patches and updates.
ALL programs need patches and updates. I don't trust any software company that doesn't freely offer them. Most of the "big" successful computer attacks have been on unpatched systems and applications (both Windows and Unix).

The computer world has greatly changed over the last ten years. In the good old days, you could go without patches for years without consequence. No longer.
 

stash

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Jun 22, 2000
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the fact that everything they make needs patches and updates.
don't get me wrong I love windows and am not a hater but
i see conflict of interests in the future about programs "calling home"
and windows being a partner and allowing it. I don't like sharing any information
which is why I love kerio cause anything new tries to do anything online
we get this wonderful popup saying deny/permit set rule for this.
Ok, where to begin with this statement...

First of all, RebateMonger is correct, all commercial software needs updates.

Second, you are already implicitly trusting Microsoft by running their OS. You can't pick and choose the components within that OS that you trust. You can't say (implicitly) that you trust Windows as a whole, but that the Windows firewall is not trustworthy.

Third, the fact the XP firewall doesn't have outbound filtering does not mean Microsoft is 'partnering' with software firms whose apps phone home. Most apps that need to communicate with the outside world will have that clearly documented somewhere. Most people who are bombarded with popups from their firewall will either allow everything or break some functionality in the app, as a result of the same reason: they don't know what the hell they are doing.

And if an app wanted to phone home without you knowing about it, it would be easy to do it without your outbound filters ever telling you. This same concept applies to malware and spyware (which is technically what an app would be if it tried to do this without your knowledge).

The Vista firewall does filter in both directions, but the outbound filtering is not intended to make you more secure (although the marketing drones might unfortunately position it that way). It is intended to be used as an administrative tool, espeically in a domain environment, where an administrator can set policies preventing users from using certain programs (such as IM).
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
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Oct 25, 1999
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It is Not a secret that I like Microsoft.

But I am not always in agreement with some of the Marketing issues.

There are issues that Make people uncomfortable Privacy is one of the..

Privacy is a Very Big Thing in American Society, and it is an issue that cut across all our life not just computers. Controlling outgoing info from ones computer is part this issue.

It is Not a matter of Trust, or right or wrong. Putting a small Firewall (like Kerio, Outpost and the like) that with a simple interface let people be in control make many people feel more comfortable.

There are ways of dealing with these issues in a positive Manner. Saying ?trust us? to people who have problem with trust would make them trust less. It is more of a Psychological/Societal issue rather than Technology.

Publishing a Non Technological White paper that explains specifically in simple English without Euphemisms what the Firewall does in each level of Vista's release and what are the interface means to control it would help to clear the Air.

In absence of clear info and instructions people would go their way, whether we like it or Not.

Since this thread started I spent hours trying to find pages that I can point to that would provide straight info about this issue.

I found few pages related to variety of betas, and some conflicted info. Nothing clear and straight forward related to the actual RTMs.

I have the variety of Vista RTM releases, and sooner or later I would personally resolve this issue. But that means first getting more hardware that can take well Vista without ifs and buts, installing, running testing, and that is going to take time.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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I won't make it a secret that I have a hate love relationship with microsoft---but there are times when microsoft needs bashed because they have a defacto monopoly in the marketplace.
And that lack of competition has led to microsoft arrogance and stagnation---OS2 might have been a good competitor---but its developers proved even more inept than microsoft.

Linux may yet prove to be the better choice---but the huge base of x86 code---and driver support are very high hills to overcome. But as microsoft fragments Vista into a versions for different users---and with the huge insecurities of the new Vista. release which they will have to likely patch like crazy for years---may yet prove to the world that microsoft just can't get it right.---and that microsoft either needs lots of regulation---or that microsoft's OS needed busted up via antitrust laws so competion exists in the marketplace.
 

JackMDS

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Oct 25, 1999
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Originally posted by: Lemon lawbut there are times when Microsoft needs bashed because they have a defacto monopoly in the marketplace.
Why?

For better or worse, the USA has to most open free market on this Planet.

As long as there is No legal way that stifle open market.

Microsoft has to be Bashed because the competition is Not good enough?

The fact is that WordStar, Lotus123, WordPerfect, and some more, completely dominated the market in their time. IBM per-se was it in the PC arena for few years too.

They are No more because someone offered better more like product.

Nero dominates the Burning market, for similar reason, and is not even a USA company.

In the early 80 when DOS was the dominate in the PC, it did not offer good OS management utilities.

Peter Norton saw the need and came with is famous Norton Utilizes.

All the pundits in the computer magazines clabbered Microsoft for not providing this tools and force people to spend more money and buy 3rd party utilities.

Later in the game Norton sold is company to Symantec.

Now Symantec starts to go out of business, few of the old pundits (the ones that years ago bashed MS for not providing Utilities), and many new one Now bashing again, but this time it why Microsoft stifle competition, because they are more and more offer such utilities.

Make a lot of sense Ha?:shocked:
 

kindest

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Dec 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: RebateMonger
Originally posted by: kindest
the fact that everything they make needs patches and updates.
ALL programs need patches and updates. I don't trust any software company that doesn't freely offer them. Most of the "big" successful computer attacks have been on unpatched systems and applications (both Windows and Unix).

The computer world has greatly changed over the last ten years. In the good old days, you could go without patches for years without consequence. No longer.

as the topic says ive been using kerio 2.1.5 which hasnt been patched or updated since february 05....... in the same time for example internet explorer probably had 20 updates.
With kerio i felt really secure.. never had a single problem with spyware/virus/worms anything.... if i hadn't been using kerio im sure over the years I would have gotten something as I've stopped countless outbound/inbound connections from random things as well as programs that had no need to phone home.

i trust microsoft but id feel muchhhhhhhhhh better using a non-ms firewall. i didn't want to turn this into a ms war or whatever and i understand what everyone's saying.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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To JackMDS,

Its one thing to state that there is a tremendous amount of competition among products that use the various microsoft OS's. And as you point out, that very competition has brought us better software.

My thesis of microsoft bashing is that there is no real competition in the OS market---with its defacto monopoly on x86 code, microsoft is and remains competition free. With situations like that being almost the sole reason for the USA going with and implementing anti-trust legislation a century ago.

I certainly maintain if the microsoft OS was busted up into two or more companies forced to compete against each other---we would see far better OS's and also an end to many third party companies fixing what windows itself should fix.

Right now we see a microsoft complanancy---and no real incentive to fix problems---plus a public be damned attitude. Competition is the only thing that would light a fire under their butt and get them innovating on a fast track.---and I am predicting that Vista will be more of the same.

With many products that worked well under windows XP now failing to work with Vista---with now defunct firewalls being just one such example---as microsoft punts its responsibilities to provide a secure OS to other companies who will charge us an arm and a leg to defacto patch vista.---and another arm and a leg to keep it patched.

Only free market competition in the OS market will fix what ails us----and when and if we get that competion---either by busted microsoft up---or some other OS that will run the huge base of x86 code out there---we will all benefit.---including microsoft.

But also agree that this thread should not turn into a anti-microsoft war---but this needs saying and can't be sugar coated---we need better OS's and only robust competition will make it a reality.

Or are we going to wait for countries like India or China to provide said OS? Or will we wait for terrorists to write and deploy that code that will totally break the internet and all
microsoft OS's. Effectively halting commerce worldwide.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
To JackMDS,

Its one thing to state that there is a tremendous amount of competition among products that use the various microsoft OS's. And as you point out, that very competition has brought us better software.

My thesis of microsoft bashing is that there is no real competition in the OS market---with its defacto monopoly on x86 code, microsoft is and remains competition free. With situations like that being almost the sole reason for the USA going with and implementing anti-trust legislation a century ago.

I certainly maintain if the microsoft OS was busted up into two or more companies forced to compete against each other---we would see far better OS's and also an end to many third party companies fixing what windows itself should fix.

Right now we see a microsoft complanancy---and no real incentive to fix problems---plus a public be damned attitude. Competition is the only thing that would light a fire under their butt and get them innovating on a fast track.---and I am predicting that Vista will be more of the same.

With many products that worked well under windows XP now failing to work with Vista---with now defunct firewalls being just one such example---as microsoft punts its responsibilities to provide a secure OS to other companies who will charge us an arm and a leg to defacto patch vista.---and another arm and a leg to keep it patched.

Only free market competition in the OS market will fix what ails us----and when and if we get that competion---either by busted microsoft up---or some other OS that will run the huge base of x86 code out there---we will all benefit.---including microsoft.

But also agree that this thread should not turn into a anti-microsoft war---but this needs saying and can't be sugar coated---we need better OS's and only robust competition will make it a reality.

Or are we going to wait for countries like India or China to provide said OS?

If you want real competition, support the competition.

Anyways, from the reports I've read or heard Vista is a decent step in the right direction for Microsoft.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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To nOcmonkey,

I would tend to agree with the support the competition is right---but the fact is the competition forces you to chuck the huge base of x86 code---if you go with mac or linux---when that changes--microsoft will finally be forced to compete.

Its that huge base of x86 code that is precious---and not microsoft.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
To nOcmonkey,

I would tend to agree with the support the competition is right---but the fact is the competition forces you to chuck the huge base of x86 code---if you go with mac or linux---when that changes--microsoft will finally be forced to compete.

Its that huge base of x86 code that is precious---and not microsoft.

99% of the code out there is crap. Chuck it anyways.

If you want to use those applications, whether it is because you like being locked in to proprietary applications or whether there isn't a replacement for what you want to do, try WINE.