Anyone have Japanese chefs knife?

[pete6032]

I cook 5-6 days per week and that entails chopping a boatload of vegetables. I use Wusthof or Henckels knives for everything from chopping vegetables to cutting poultry and beef. Is there any advantage to getting a Japanese knife for chopping vegetables? Is it that much easier?

 

[herm0016]

"easier"?

we like our shun knives and have a 4 and a 6 in that get used a lot, but for heavy stuff my go to is an old carbon steel that takes a great edge, my wife likes a capahalon with a full offset handle that is made of pretty nice Damascus with a good edge steel and then layers of stainless.

the best thing to do is get them professionally sharpened. we do ours every couple years and its time again. That is the biggest difference. some people use them till they are like butter knives and think that you have to chuck them and get "something better", they are totally wrong.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Wouldn't the Japanese Chef miss it?

 

[MrSquished]

I'm big into Japanese knives and think they are worth the investment if you cook regularly. They will last you for life if you take care of them. I did start with Wusthof and Messermeister but I am much happier with the harder Japanese steel. Stay sharper longer and are just more finely crafted tools in general. They are like lasers.

I can give you at least what I think are some good recs and tips if you give a budget and what the knives are to be used for mainly.

Some of my knives are stainless, including two that are SG2 steel, and a couple stainless clad high carbon, which are a little higher maintenance, they can't stay wet for too long, but they are often easier to sharpen if you are comfortable with a stone. There are different steels to consider, blade weights, etc... But you don't have to go too crazy. Like with any product, there is a balance.

I have a 240mm gyuto (chef's knife), a 210mm kiritsuke (basically a chef's knife with a pointy tip), a 180mm Santoku, a Nakiri, and a petty. All handcrafted by smaller Japanese smiths. Ranging in HRC (hardness) from 61-64 whereas German knives are more like 56-58. So yes Japanese knives are a bit more delicate. Just use a softer wood or plastic cutting board and don't try to cut through bone with your hardest Japanese knife and you'll be fine. There are Japanese knives like the yo deba made for breaking down meat with bone if you do a lot of that.

I have a Global serrated knife as well. If you need more specialized knives like for breaking down fish, or for cutting through bone or partially frozen product, you will need a different knife.

These will last me the rest of my life and I'll leave them to whichever niece of mine cooks the most when I die.

 

[ponyo]

Just use whatever is comfortable to you. If Wusthof or Henckels works for you, keep using it. There's no reason to change for sake of change. Knives are just tools and people have different preferences. I use Global Chef knife because it feels good in my hands, and I like using it.

 

[MrSquished]

Just use whatever is comfortable to you. If Wusthof or Henckels works for you, keep using it. There's no reason to change for sake of change. Knives are just tools and people have different preferences. I use Global Chef knife because it feels good in my hands, and I like using it.

If he is breaking down lots of vegetables 5 days a week, why shouldn't he consider a better tool for the job? You don't think some tools are better made than other tools? Across a variety of disciplines - from cooking to car maintenance, to construction?

There are only quality differences for just very overpriced scarves?

 

[herm0016]

good points squished.

the Japanese steel is more brittle and depending on your use profile can be harder to maintain. if your partner likes to drop them in the sink and let them rattle around with other dishes, they may not be for you.

I do need to get a heavier butcher knife for processing animals.

"Better" is subjective here. so I think the point is get what you like, try some stuff but don't get hung up on the Japanese knives being "better"

also, get what you have sharpened. really. I maintain the edges myself but a skilled person with a slack belt does a much better job, and its generally cheap if you find someone local that does it. Our guy does it full time in his basement for lots of restaurants around here and his partner runs a shop that does other cutting tools like garden tools, saw blades, router bits, etc.

edit: switched wife to partner.

 

[Captante]

I do and I bet he would be pissed if he found out!


Seriously the set of knives I use the most frequently is by a company called Zyliss (cheap/Chinese) mainly because they have comfortable rubber handles, have no issues in the dishwasher and most importantly sharpen to a razor-like edge nicely.

I also have a large assortment of random cooking of knives some Japanese some German and a few Swedish some of which are really nice but they get used less often.

 

[Stiff Clamp]

I do and I bet he would be pissed if he found out!

give it back, bruh why u confiscate?

 

[dullard]

Just use whatever is comfortable to you. If Wusthof or Henckels works for you, keep using it. There's no reason to change for sake of change. Knives are just tools and people have different preferences. I use Global Chef knife because it feels good in my hands, and I like using it.

Bingo.

If he is breaking down lots of vegetables 5 days a week, why shouldn't he consider a better tool for the job? You don't think some tools are better made than other tools?

The tool that fits your hand IS the better tool for the job. If you have a small hand and a large knife handle, then it will slip on you. No matter the the style of knife or the angle of the blade, or the sharpness will matter, it will suck if it slips on you. Same with a handle that is too small for your hand.

Only once you have the proper weight/handle fit do more minor differences matter (such as Japanese or not).

 

[Captante]

I still have a few knives left from an original "As seen on TV!" Ginsu knife set I received as a gift many years ago including one in my tool box! (it literally will cut the head off a nail)

The handles were cheapo plastic and had a tendency to snap off right above the blade but they cut better then any other serrated steak knife I own to this day. (figures)

Not mine but these are almost identical: *(from Ebay)

 

[MrSquished]

Bingo.

The tool that fits your hand IS the better tool for the job. If you have a small hand and a large knife handle, then it will slip on you. No matter the the style of knife or the angle of the blade, or the sharpness will matter, it will suck if it slips on you. Same with a handle that is too small for your hand.

Only once you have the proper weight/handle fit do more minor differences matter (such as Japanese or not).

I mean of course. Who said not to get a knife that fits you? What do you think, Japanese knife handles and knives are deformed? They make Japanese knives with plain handles as well as Western style handles. They actually have more styles of knives so one is even more likely to find different weights and balance you like.

This isn't rocket science. I'm glad I didn't have you two guys giving me advice when I thought my Wusthof was the best knife ever, and I loved that knife, and it's a solid product, but I'd never know what I was missing. The good Japanese steel is without a doubt more superior. Once I experienced it I had no interest in German steel anymore. That might not happen to everyone, but it's good to try.

Most chef knife groups I'm in, they are dominated by Japanese knife discussions because once you try it, it's a better product.

Now in a busy and hectic less than ideal commercial cooking situation you may or may not want a more expensive and harder steel Japanese knife, depending on various factors. That will vary more. But for serious or avid home cooks and use, almost always better.

 

[dullard]

I mean of course. Who said not to get a knife that fits you?

You did.

Ponyo said to use what is comfortable and you rejected that idea.

 

[MrSquished]

You did.

Ponyo said to use what is comfortable and you rejected that idea.

I don't think you are reading correctly. His statement is basically if something functions ok enough, why bother trying something new? That's just silly.

Do you think we'd ever discover better things if we never tried something new? Of course there is a point where just trying new shit for the sake of it is wasteful or useless, but many times it pays off very well.

I disagreed with the sentiment you should not think of upgrading something if it's working ok enough, not that you shouldn't consider a suitable and potentially better alternative.

 

[dullard]

I don't think you are reading correctly. His statement is basically if something functions ok enough, why bother trying something new?

I take his statement as if it is comfortable and works well, then that is the goal. Not that you should never try new things. Beyond fit and function, there is very little difference from knife to knife. Sure, some are slightly better, but the main two things by far are fit to your body and sharpness--both of which are covered by his statement of comfort and working well.

I have a Wusthof Chef's knife that I was given decades ago. It is one of their cheaper models. My wife didn't like it with her hand size/shape and got a Miyabi Kaizen Chef's knife (she loves it). To this day, I much prefer the Wusthof because it fits my hand. Both are sharp. Both cut well. But the one that fits me is the one that I go to. Not the fancy Japanese one. Is there a better knife for me? I bet there is. But, when I replace the Wusthof I will focus on fit, length, weight, and sharpness not the type of steel or the angle of the blade.

 

[MrSquished]

I take his statement as if it is comfortable and works well, then that is the goal. Not that you should never try new things. Beyond fit and function, there is very little difference from knife to knife. Sure, some are slightly better, but the main two things by far are fit to your body and sharpness--both of which are covered by his statement of comfort and working well.

I have a Wusthof Chef's knife that I was given decades ago. It is one of their cheaper models. My wife didn't like it with her hand size/shape and got a Miyabi Kaizen Chef's knife. To this day, I much prefer the Wusthof because it fits my hand. Both are sharp. Both cut well. But the one that fits me is the one that I go to. Not the fancy Japanese one. Is there a better knife for me? I bet there is. But, when I replace the Wusthof I will focus on fit, weight, and sharpness not the type of steel or the angle of the blade.

Then you are not considering all the proper factors in a knife. Fit and weight are important, but steel hardness is also quite important, and if you get into that, at least knowing a little bit more about steel type is good - at least between stainless and carbon.

The best knife is a sharp knife. Simple fact, Japanese steel can stay sharper longer. That's a big deal. There is a point of diminishing returns where the hardest knife steel chips too easily or is harder to sharpen. But if you land in the sweet spot, of which most Japanese knives are in, it's definitely better. So in many use cases, it's a better option.

Again in a pro kitchen, many more variables where this changes.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The best knife is a sharp knife. Simple fact, Japanese steel can stay sharper longer. That's a big deal. There is a point of diminishing returns where the hardest knife steel chips too easily or is harder to sharpen. But if you land in the sweet spot, of which most Japanese knives are in, it's definitely better. So in many use cases, it's a better option.

Steel is steel. Carbon content, and what (if any) alloy it is are the only relevant factors. If a Japanese manufacturer is the best knife manufacturer on the planet, then say that, but 'Japanese steel' doesn't mean anything wrt quality. You could have a garbage factory churning out cheap shit quarter tang blades at a thousand a minute, it doesn't mean they're good just because the factory is in Japan using local materials.

Find a thin, full-tang blade from a re-use center, sharpen that shit to within an inch of its existence (you'll get good at it eventually), hand wash it, and don't let it bend, that'll serve 99% of people for most relevant purposes. For the remaining 1%, I'm sure there's some high carbon/ceramic/obsidian blades that'll serve your purposes.

 

[MrSquished]

Steel is steel. Carbon content, and what (if any) alloy it is are the only relevant factors. If a Japanese manufacturer is the best knife manufacturer on the planet, then say that, but 'Japanese steel' doesn't mean anything wrt quality. You could have a garbage factory churning out cheap shit quarter tang blades at a thousand a minute, it doesn't mean they're good just because the factory is in Japan using local materials.

Find a thin, full-tang blade from a re-use center, sharpen that shit to within an inch of its existence (you'll get good at it eventually), hand wash it, and don't let it bend, that'll serve 99% of people for most relevant purposes. For the remaining 1%, I'm sure there's some high carbon/ceramic/obsidian blades that'll serve your purposes.

Of course there are shit products made in Japan. It's just a simple easy term to encompass what generally makes good Japanese knives different from good German or European knives - harder steel for better edge retention and often more finely ground edges.

It's just easier to call it Japanese steel vs getting into too intricate terms.

Of course we are talking about higher quality products here. He isn't asking about the Japanese Cutco if he is already invested in the nicer German stuff.

 

[lxskllr]

If you want something unique that makes /some/ things easier, get an ulu. You don't have to pay a lot. Any knife is fine as long as it's comfortable, and works appropriately. This will give you the board(I don't use mine much) and a knife for <$60. I paid <$10 for mine at a thriftshop, but it's worth $54.

https://www.amazon.com/Factory-Alaska-Chopping-Bowl-board-Mountain/dp/B0091M80TQ/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=ulu&qid=1638997441&sr=8-3

 

[MrSquished]

OP the subreddit r/chefknives is a good resource for different knives at different budgets and where to buy them. If you want to get one and at a slightly above average price point, SG2 steel has great qualities that require no special care. It's just a great stainless with great edge retention and not hard to sharpen. Look for like 62:63 hardness.

I mean yes, most people really only need one excellent knife for the vast majority of their cooking, pretty much any of us here. Whether it's a 7-in or 8-in or some people even like a 10-in chef's knife. Chef's style for the bigger, or Santoku for the smaller. Some people even just like a 7 inch petty. Whichever length makes you comfortable. That is super important.

If I had to only keep one knife, that would be my 8-in Japanese kiritsuki which is basically a pointier chef's knife. You can do almost anything with it. You certainly don't need 5 knives.

But I do use the 10-in and those extra couple inches and extra weight comes in handy for certain jobs.

And sometimes the super light 7-in laser blade santoku I have is just a pleasure to use. Onions are like soft butter and the edge just stays sharp for so long. So those three knives get decent use, but mostly the 8-in. The smaller petty does come in handy for some tasks, I used it yesterday in fact. Could I have done them with the 8 inch? Yes.

And of course a serrated knife for bread and soft tomatoes.

 

[sdifox]

 

[sdifox]

This is funny in a dark humour way. Yes they are still using 60+ year old commie shells to make knives.

History

Second Taiwan Strait Crisis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"During Eisenhower's visit PRC forces fired over 100,000 artillery rounds onto Kinmen within a few days, killing 7 ROC soldiers and wounding 59, while 6 civilians perished and 15 were injured. ROC soldiers withheld their fire until after Eisenhower left Taipei."


PLA fired over 470k shells on Kinmen over 44 days. Works out to about 3000 per square km.

 

[kage69]

The main benefit to going with higher end steels from Japan is steel hardness. For people who don't cook a lot and want nothing to do with high volume cooking, that knife will stay sharp longer between sharpening services. Important to note traditional Japanese knives are often single bevel, like a chisel. Some people love it, others steer clear.

If you do a lot of cutting (you work at a meat plant or are a line cook at a busy restaurant), harder steel is more of a pain because you need to hone and sharpen more often from work load, but that 62 RC gyuto will make you spend more time and effort getting that edge back where you want it. With 'softer' steels you spend far less time getting that working edge back.

Another consideration is, how sharp you want things? If you demand the ultimate edge, that means making it more acute. Japanese blades with dual bevels are often honed down to between 10 and 15 degrees - because steel that hard properly tempered can handle it. While you can put that same angle on your Wusthoff, it's not going to stay around long as steel in the 56-58 RC neighborhood needs angles in the 30 to 20 degree range or it will typically deform and curl, go dull pretty quick.



I would stick to what you are using now, but try putting a saber (convex) grind on your main knife. The difference can be mind boggling. Know anyone with a WorkSharp? I recommend investing in the Ken Onion edition if possible. Fantastic tool, probably the easiest way to do convex grinds period, and you can use it for all kinds of stuff.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Of course there are shit products made in Japan. It's just a simple easy term to encompass what generally makes good Japanese knives different from good German or European knives - harder steel for better edge retention and often more finely ground edges.

It's just easier to call it Japanese steel vs getting into too intricate terms.

Of course we are talking about higher quality products here. He isn't asking about the Japanese Cutco if he is already invested in the nicer German stuff.

Then give a brand name, not 'Japanese', so some poor schmuck won't buy some piece of shit with a bamboo handle made in China by a company called Yoshicorp and sponsored by some douchebag that looks like Mr. Miyagi, because he thinks 'Japanese is better'.

 

[MrSquished]

Then give a brand name, not 'Japanese', so some poor schmuck won't buy some piece of shit with a bamboo handle made in China by a company called Yoshicorp and sponsored by some douchebag that looks like Mr. Miyagi, because he thinks 'Japanese is better'.

Needs a budget and a style of knife he wants, but I suggested r/chefknives as a great starting place for what brand knife and where to buy it. They have a greater knowledge of more brands at different price points. A good gyuto will start around $150 and go up from there, but I have no idea his budget.

But for a home cook as long as you don't chip it or get it sharpened by someone who doesn't know what they are doing and takes off too much steel, it should last you a lifetime.