anyone else hope military strikes do not occur ?

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
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i've been finding many of the arguements against wholesale military retaliation quite persuasive. the region is a tinderbox
of anti-western sentiment that threatens the stability of nearby governments, particularly pakistan. the consequences
of western military assaults could meteor and the conflict can galvanize a legion of terrorists, the size and scope of which
we cannot begin to imagine.

if the current military dictatorship in pakistan is overthrown, due to civil war, and if the same tribalists as are currently in
power in afghanistan take command of islamabad (and their nascent nuclear program), we could have a one extremely
ugly affair. remember, the border between afghanistan and pakistan is an artificial invention of british imperialists, drawn
over a hundred years ago to meet their then geo-political needs. the taliban and their brotherly tribes have never recognized
this invisible line and would rush to one another's assistance if attacked by a sizeable foreign invader, as they did in 1842
against a 16,000 man strong british ground contigent - only 1 british soldier survived.
 

351Cleveland

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2001
1,381
6
81
Give the US another option. Until you can, we must proceed with the course of action provided to us.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,111
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Hope? Yes. Is that an option? Probably not. The only way I can see avoiding military strikes, would be if everyone just handed over the terrorists that we are looking for. That's not gonna happen, and we'll probably never get them all, no matter what.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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violence + violence = MORE VIOLENCE

violence + nothing = VIOLENCE + Doormat
 

jcuadrado

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 1999
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so what do we do then? let the WTC go and turn our faces?...cmon....The INEVITABLE must happen!
 

Keroseen

Banned
Apr 13, 2001
808
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It is obvious that the last week's attacks are part of much bigger PLAN than to just terrorize Americans... The bastards behind this clearly wanted US to retaliate, and we are falling for this trap. The network of terrorism has been developing for several decades now, and there's just no chance for us in this war, unless, of course, it's going to last decades... This is just so not right! :|
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Or we can just clean out the sewer and weld down the manholes.

Eventually, new rats will pop up, however, it will take time for them to grow.
 

KpocAlypse

Golden Member
Jan 10, 2001
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What we need is to grab bin-Laden and a few of his pals, blow the hell out of the training sites, and get the frick out of there, they're really isn't a reason to go to "war" with a land-locked, puny third rate country which already is a schite hole.. We really don't need to prove that we can turn it into a parking lot do we?

China and Iraq bother me, Afganistan doesn't, if the Afgan goverment gives the region any problems, India could woop'um with one hand behind there backs.

<< The bastards behind this clearly wanted US to retaliate, and we are falling for this trap >>

You get that feeling too?
 

Moohooya

Senior member
Oct 10, 1999
677
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I belive the reward for for bin Laden currently stands at $15million. Add another $15million for dead/alive and I think our problems will go away. For $30M, I can see a small group of mercanaries going in well armed, doing whatever they need to do to find him (not hard if you are willing to break the law) and comming out with with a fist full of money. Sure some might not make it out, but that is alot of cash and I bet you could put together quite a team with ex seals/marines.

If you want to solve the problem and know someone rich, get them to add a few million.

So, yes there will be violence, but the number of civilans will be very few, and the overall number of deaths would be greatly minimised. The team doens't even have to be American, so who would any survivors retaliate against?

So if I was the government, I would up the reward. They keep their hands clean and save billions of dollars.

JMHO
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,875
282
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I really genuinely hope you dont think our governmental leaders are so stupid that they would chose not to take the least lethal means to accomplish the mission. Do you really think we want to sacrifice human lives on both sides for nothing? Just to boast and brag we are the most powerful nation in the world when it is already most obvious we already are? No, we are TRYING to do this with the full cooperation of all the peaceful nations of the entire world. To collectively wage a war against terrorism that will once and for all if not eliminate, but at least drastically reduce the opportunity of small groups of evil people to cast thier self serving acts of murder and destruction at will against peace loving innocent citizens of all nations. It is not a task that we alone can accomplish. Operation Desert Storm proved that a world of nations can, even with vast differences in culture and beliefs, stand up against the worst of these criminals, in a common pursuit of a just cause. If you listened to Colin Powell earlier today, this is not something that will occur in a couple weeks. We are talking months, and YEARS to accomplish this worldwide task.

For years we have turned the other cheek when terrorism struck for the most part. Yes we had our little skirmishes and tossed a few weapons at a few targets, but this mass destruction of innocent civilians, total destruction of a civilian Icon to the world, with citizens of MANY nations who were doing nothing but carrying on thier daily business in peace with the world was nothing less than an act of War against the soverign people of the United States and all nations represented within the WTC. Not to even mention the criminal acts of destruction and murder against our Military and attempted destruction of our own nations capitol.

Stop worrying about which you have little knowledge of and give credit to those who have spent their lives serving our nation to do what is right for us. The President is not some wild maniac like Saddam Hussien with all power to do as he pleases with our nations military power and economic resources. He must answer to the people, to the congress, to the senate, and will do what is right for our nation. If our leaders end up making a major mistake, let it be know that thier mistake is also our mistake. We will all shoulder the blame together, just as we will revel in victory if we have success.

Victory does not mean simply taking Usama Bin Laden, but will only be complete when all terrorism is shut down or diluted to a mere insignificance.
 

ToBeMe

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2000
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<< It is obvious that the last week's attacks are part of much bigger PLAN than to just terrorize Americans... The bastards behind this clearly wanted US to retaliate, and we are falling for this trap. The network of terrorism has been developing for several decades now, and there's just no chance for us in this war, unless, of course, it's going to last decades... This is just so not right! >>


Nope......I just don't buy that anymore......and neither does the Gov. from what I hear & read. I firmly believe that Osama Bin Laden figured it like this:
The terrorists would strike their objectives and not leave enough evidence to absolutely pinpoint him as the perp. thus making many other nations leary of whom to attack. Subesequently support for any military response would have little backing by the time enough evidence could be gathered to proceed. So basicly he figured that he could get away with this because the US would have little support and less everyday it took them to directly connect Bin Laden!

Think about it........the US came within less than an hour of nailing him with a missile not very long ago and that was from considerable distance. Don't kid yourself, the CIA and other Intelligence Ops. may have been "lax" precluding this, but given a short amount of time with the considerable resources available to them, they can locate his exact whereabouts......we may not hear about it right away, but consider the oppertunity which presented itself just last Dec.!

Nope, Osama is NOT a "stupid" man.......he knew that the support to committ multi-national or NATO troops would fade quickly due to the elusiveness of these attacks, but, I'm sure he was also aware that a war with the US was NOT in his best interests because even though military support may be lacking, every other country and most of the people whom supported him prior to this know that throwing their support behind Bin Laden at this point would only solidify the other NATO countries once again and possibly even engage China in a large scale! Come on now, no matter how rough a full scale battle may be in that region, do you think for one minute that they could sustain a full multinational attack for any length of time?????

Maybe I'm wrong.........who knows for sure......but, I watched a lot of breifings and interviews this weekend as well as the reports on what the Taliban was doing and from what I can gather from my meager expierience in the "Corp." this is NOT indicitive of a people or country whom "wants" a fight.....now Saddam.......he WANTED a fight.......right up until the time it started anyway........but these people........no.......these people are scared!
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
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there are number of non-military options, or at least quasi-covert-military options, that would not amount to announcing
our obvious intentions to the world.

1- the western cause can arm and support the northern alliance. we can provide them with advanced weaponry, ground
counsultants, intelligence support, and lots and lots of crisp u.s. dollars to fund their missions. the northern alliance is
composed of moderates, themselves former or current commanders like the taliban's mullah mohammed omar, who
represent the legitimate recognized holders of state.

2- the u.s. should maintain pressure on pakistan to sustain their closed borders and prevent any arms and provisions
flow to the taliban. we can probably count on iran to close off her borders to the west and tajikistan to the north. russia
can provide air and ground support to enforce the northern blockade thereby appeasing their jitters and ensure their
unconditional cooperation. the blockade operations can be composed of multinational forces, whether they be entirely
from arab or islamic nations in pakistan and iran, western and russian troops in tajikistan.

3- combined clandestine operations involving western, isreali, russian and asian intelligence forces to conduct their work
away from the glare of the media. together they can strategize to undermine the taliban government without encumbrances,
public opinion polls, or popular pressures. we can lift any bans against assasination, if they apply, and promote massive
propaganda campaigns to isolate the harborers further.

4- arab and islamic countries can hold conferences condemning the form of islam practiced by the taliban as essentially,
what else?, un-islamic. right now the tide of militant anti-americanism is strong. any american intervention would only
aggravate these venomous feelings, sending these lunatics over the edge - as if they needed the push - and egging
them into a worsening frenzy, endangering their governments, and escalating the regional destabilization. as part
of the covert propaganda campaigns, changing grassroot negative opinions, in for example pakistan, could provide
the needed relief to force these other measures, tamping or distracting native oppostion with their own religious
sophistry.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,791
17,413
146


<< violence + violence = MORE VIOLENCE >>



Tell me, should we have followed that flawed equation in WWII? During the civil war? Should the Muslems have followed it during the Crusades?

If a serial killer was trying to kill you, and you had the abilty to kill him first, would you instead choose to lay down and die?

Look at that, with three questions I've totally destroyed your nonsensical statement
 

Syringer

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
19,333
2
71
I also hope that military strikes do not occur....I just can't fathom the result of this war....the result will be devastating and it willl be a horrible end. Hopefully war does not occur and military strikes do not occur. But if we resort to it. Make sure that any kind of nuclear warfare does not occur. The nuclear fallout is what troubles me...
 

veryape

Platinum Member
Jun 13, 2000
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I think its safe to say that no American wants to go to war and lose a single American life,or any other nationallities innocent lives for that matter. That is just not an option though. See things for what they are and not for what you would like them to be in a perfect world. Our world is far from perfect. Case in point,Tuesdays events.
 

ToBeMe

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2000
5,711
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LOL! syzygy........nice list of "options".........thing is, at this point, don't you kinda' HAVE to believe that Taliban & Osama would pretty much know whom is behind all of these "options" you propose anyway????? That being the case......why would they be any less likely to strike us again than they would be if we were at least over there occupying their attention???? It seems as if you don't quite grasp the fact that the only way these people will stop.......is if they either are caught, convicted & jailed.......or if the just plain cease to exist!

Yes, I know what you'll say next.........we can't get all of them right???? Well, look at it this way, terrorism takes someone with power to persuade people, money, rescources, organization skills, and leadership........just like anything else, if you take out the leadership the chances of the rest succeeding is greatly diminished for quite some time. Enough time possibly to thwart future occurances and to negotiate terms!

Having said that, as you can probably tell, I don't think a "Large" contingent of US military is needed or wise, no, I believe, at least for first, let a small skilled team such as Berets, or Deltas go in and try to eliminate the leadership because I honestly believe this would prove much more time efficient overall and would save many lives for both sides!
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76


<< LOL! syzygy........nice list of "options".........thing is, at this point, don't you kinda' HAVE to believe that Taliban & Osama
would pretty much know whom is behind all of these "options" you propose anyway????? That being the case......why would
they be any less likely to strike us again than they would be if we were at least over there occupying their attention???? It
seems as if you don't quite grasp the fact that the only way these people will stop.......is if they either are caught, convicted
& jailed.......or if the just plain cease to exist!
>>


the reason for covert operations is not to hide the 'obvious', but to deploy an important psychological strategy that could
possibly work to defuse the escalating hatred among the popular militant classes across the asian and middle eastern
region. they are expecting fighters, bombers, ground troops, warships off their coast. the pakistani governemnt has
granted permission for use of their air space to western military forces. this ofcourse has stirred violent religious
and ethnic words from both sides of the border. the extremist's own government, the taliban's erstwhile supporter,
has now turned traitorous. rather than endanger musharraf's regime further, since we can barely contemplate the
disastrous results of his downfall if a civil war develops, we should first look to what already exists on the ground
(the afghani northern alliance), then consider quiet covert operations, propaganda campaigns, imposing closed
borders to starve them of any arms replenishments, and heightening political isolation. the taliban can be squeezed
militarily and politically so they achieve a status of uber-pariah unlike any outlaw nation before them.


<< Yes, I know what you'll say next.........we can't get all of them right???? Well, look at it this way, terrorism takes
someone with power to persuade people, money, rescources, organization skills, and leadership........just like anything
else, if you take out the leadership the chances of the rest succeeding is greatly diminished for quite some time. Enough
time possibly to thwart future occurances and to negotiate terms!
>>


at least you qualified everything with 'if'. did you consider. . . so what if we manage to kill osama bin laden, then what ?
do you think the taliban and their hordes will congratulate the western forces ? do you think osama will not be transformed
into a saint for martyrs the world over ? osama's mug will hang on the wall of every 3 year old's bedroom in the militant world.
if you've seen the training videos broadcast by osama over middle eastern cable channels you'll notice that many of his trainees
are children; boys as young as 11 running obstacle courses, packing kalshnikovs, executing apartment raids. the taliban
recruit their disciples from madrassahs, which are religious training schools that poor children are dumped in parents
who cannot afford to feed and clothe them.

i would think that it would be more effective to begin the destruction of the taliban and all they represent, essentially
'the culture of terrorism', by striking at them intenally, either using their sick religious language to undermine their
own thinking or beefing up the northern alliance while strangling the taliban's supply arteries from pakistan. the
taliban possesse a profound religious hatred of all things western. their thought processes and conceptions of
this world are inbred and alien to us. they don't 'negotiate terms' - they commit suicude by flying jetliners into
population centers and kill thousands of people. capish ?
 

ToBeMe

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2000
5,711
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Yeah......I understand.......I still don't agree with your analogies, but I see what you're saying. I don't think though that targeting the Taliban first, even in covert operations would/could work. I suppose I base this from the fact that Bin Laden "made" the Taliban.......not vice versa.......He (bin laden) is the backbone from everything I gather. Yes, someone would try to fill his shoes so to speak, but, they would not/could not be as effective IMHO. Without him, the organazation would be gone as well as unwielding trust they hold for Bin Laden. From there I think it would be much easier to seek them out and destroy them internally while they are in disaray. As for the Taliban, allow the Northern Alliance to deal with them for by that time arms, training, and intelligence could be in place.

I don't know........from the way you speak of these people, you are apparently much more informed on them than I, but, I just don't know if the American people will stand for what you propose. Beyond that, I'm still not convinced that the terrorists acts would not escalate dramaticly while any of your proposals are in the works. Provided the President could sell your type of proposal, if more acts were to take place while it is ongoing, I'd hate to see the reaction here at home! What concerns me more than anything at this point is the saturation they seem to have acheived in the US! One well place "Nuke" and my God.......I hate to even think about what would happen next! I believe that is why I'm still in favor of at least an attempt to take him and as much of his network and the Taliban out as quickly as possible.........you may be right and it may anger them beyond hope, but, history is still on my side........the Japanese were fanatical to fly suicide missions also, but, they were calmed albiet with extreme measures, but Hitler and Germany was also brought to it's knees and thus far has never rekindled to any degree that has caused world strife.........
 

Keroseen

Banned
Apr 13, 2001
808
0
0
Fighting even a covert war over there almost certainly means that those fanatics will be fighting us here, in our cities...

If they could plan and execute such a full scale attack without anyone noticing it, who knows what other things they planned for us in case we go fight them... What if a nuke suitcase is already in position somewhere here just waiting for somebody to push a button in case Osama gets caught or assasinated by the US? If CIA did not get "early warnings" of the WTC attack, who can now be certain that nothing else has been planned and ready to be executed?

As Dick Morris, former Clinton adviser, said today on the Fox News Channel, our pres Bush is a plain guy who sees everything in black and white, right and wrong, good and evil, as oppose to Clinton, who, as he said, was calculating his every move like a chess player. I'm afraid that Bush's take on this super-complex situation is too "black and white", too dangerously simple...
 

MF1

Senior member
May 29, 2000
298
1
0
Taliban has never wanted peace to begin with. Military actions are unavoidable.
 

beatniks3

Senior member
Apr 14, 2000
598
0
0


<<

<< violence + violence = MORE VIOLENCE >>



Tell me, should we have followed that flawed equation in WWII? During the civil war? Should the Muslems have followed it during the Crusades?

If a serial killer was trying to kill you, and you had the abilty to kill him first, would you instead choose to lay down and die?

Look at that, with three questions I've totally destroyed your nonsensical statement
>>

--Isn't that four questions? ;)
 

doublec16

Member
Sep 9, 2001
105
0
0


<< Taliban has never wanted peace to begin with. Military actions are unavoidable. >>

So basically, war is what the Taliban wants and the US is going to give it to them. Since when does the great USA have its actions dictated to it, especially by a bunch of terrorists with little or no regard for life?
 
Oct 9, 1999
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here here..

there are some misguided people in here. Taliban isnt the global threat here. Sure they are violent, but they arent threating the world, its bin laden who is.

On top the fact that US is trying to police the world isnt going to work. They have stated suspicion on bin laden a couple of hours after the attacks, this sort of was not necessary. Lot of the european nations though bound by NATO are for a strike, but want an UN resolution. The fact that US is attacking doesnt mean that the world wants to do it, rather the US alone wants to do it. This is no better than Iraq invading Kuwait. In this day and age of modern thinking, 16th century barbarism and colonlisation wont help. I am all for getting rid of some of the terrorism, but it cant be done by one nation, even if the nation is the most powerful nation around. Its not just right. Simple logic says that it will come upon strong rebuttal to any actions.

UN should be brought into this, the fact that the UN is being by-passed dissolves the main charter reason why UN was first created in 1950. This US revenge (as they call it) is following the line of what happened before WW2 where the league of the nations couldnt do anything cause one country declared war on another. I hate to see WW3, but what I am seeing in the US trends, its just that. Back then Germany had the best in technology, probably a little far superiour than what England or any other country had before the war started. This seemed to give the feeling of "god" and invincilbity.

I want the UN to convene on this, otherwise this becomes only a US operation with NATO being with it. This will cause other terrorist organisations to concentrate efforst on teh US.

There were some really good points in here and frankly I wish some "hot heads" advisors and generals of the military who think they are all that look at what people think. Tech Might is not everything. remember these people dont have much in afganistan, you destroy that you are puttting them in teh stone ages. They may not have cruise missles but they can fight and strategically an alternate way of combating this will be better than going after bin laden. How many people are you going to fight.. start small..

That is my only advice.

As usual I follow the lines of M.K. Gandhi and his principle of "Ahimsa". You might say door mat, but I have found it very useful in real life situations.I am not for war nor the military strike by the US alone. Howver if UN say yes then fine. However the global stand should be noted and not VETO'ed by the 5 permernent members of the General Assembly.