Anyone else feel that there are 2 fundamental problems with TF2?

[slugg]

It's my opinion that TF2 is a very fun and well designed game, but it has (and has always had) two major issues with game balance. My definition of ruining the balance of the game is deeper than damage balance - it goes into overall game play.

First, if any ONE class is stacked on a team, the balance is completely ruined. This has always been the case, even before the class achievement unlockables were released. The class stacking issue is even more noticeable right now due to the recent pyro update. Why is it that when an entire team is one class, the team is able to dominate even harder? It makes no sense; isn't it more intuitive for a diverse team to overpower a class-stacked team? Example: try playing offense against a purely pyro defense on a CTF map.

Second, I feel that the game is too situational. What I mean by that is a lot of the time, it doesn't matter how good of a player you are - you're screwed. For example, if you're a scout trying to get through a room with a sentry, as long as the engineer camps his sentry gun, there is really NOTHING you can do. A counter example is that in Team Fortress Classic, even if the engineer had the advantage in this same scenario, an extremely skilled scout could still get through the room. I feel like TF2 doesn't depend enough on player skill. Please don't take these two examples as the ONLY examples, they're just the first two to pop up in my head.

I'm probably going to get a bunch of flame for this. What are your thoughts?

 

[mb]

1. It's a rare occurrence anyway. Go with medic + heavy and engineers to counter.

2. That's why it's called Team Fortress 2.

 

[Jschmuck2]

Yes, you are going to get flamed, because you're wrong.

Your first point is ridiculous. A team of three engineers with three well placed sentries could hold off an entire TEAM of pyros for as long as their metal held out. End of story. If team pyro has no medics or engineers themselves (granted, I've never ever seen this but if you say so) they are sunk. I'm not sure what teams and or servers you've been playing on that this has been happening but my suggestion to you is to find somewhere else to play.

Second off, there's a reason the game is called TEAM Fortress and it's because you're on a TEAM. It's right there in the title. So I guess on your second point, you're correct - under most circumstances a scout probably COULDN'T take an engineer who was camping his own gun (unless of course he was shooting the dispenser and then the gun at a distance with his pistol but that's for another discussion) so what ever shall you do?!? May I humbly suggest that you ask one of the other 11 people on your team to help you take down that gun.

 

[flashbacck]

I agree w/ mb and jschmuck2. If a team is dominating by being one class, then I'd bet that that team would dominate with mixed classes anyway.

 

[Chriscross3234]

These two problems are easily solved by finding a decent server to play on, more specifically ones that implement class # limitations and has competent players that use voice to coordinate playing as a team.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Agreed. I've been racking up tons of points right now with engie and heavy. Inevitably somebody on their team goes sniper to counter my heavy or spy to try to get my SGs....thereby diversifying their team.

Second, yes everything is situational. If you want to play scout every map, feel free. But your usefulness will be different depending on the other team as well as the map. I have personally killed an SG with every single class in this game, so it can be done. Noclass, however, can run through a room with SGs and not die quickly.

Given your scenario with a scout being able to run past SGs. Do you not think we'd then have engineers on the forum complaining about how no matter how good an engie you are, scouts can still run right past you?


My only complaint with TF2 is team stacking. Autobalance doesn't work out very well to counter it. The reason is actually very interesting. The types of players who dominate the scoreboard on a winning team are usually not the same types of players who can help bring a losing team back.

 

[43st]

Good post, completely agree. I think the balance issue is that they tried to make it unbalanced so the games were short. This was stated in some early developer interviews. Some of the best multiplayer matches I've ever played were complete deadlocks right up until the end, TF2 rarely has this.

 

[40sTheme]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
My only complaint with TF2 is team stacking. Autobalance doesn't work out very well to counter it. The reason is actually very interesting. The types of players who dominate the scoreboard on a winning team are usually not the same types of players who can help bring a losing team back.

Usually, that's because the people on the losing team are usually insufferably idiots who do not benefit from any shape or form of coaching whatsoever; which is usually why I join the other people who are not idiots, hence team stacking. It's not Valve's fault, it's the idiots fault. I have not problem with noobs who are willing to learn; but people who don't react when you yell 'WE HAVE 7 GODDAMN ENGIES ON A 9 PERSON TEAM ON OFFENSE! SOMEBODY CHANGE CLASS!' into the mic piss me off.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Your first point is ridiculous. A team of three engineers with three well placed sentries could hold off an entire TEAM of pyros for as long as their metal held out. End of story. If team pyro has no medics or engineers themselves (granted, I've never ever seen this but if you say so) they are sunk. I'm not sure what teams and or servers you've been playing on that this has been happening but my suggestion to you is to find somewhere else to play.

However ridiculous a team of pyros sounds, I'd take a team full of demoman as an effective strategy.

 

[imported_Slimy]

I'm trying to think of a way that a full team of pyros could accomplish anything, and I'm coming up blank. The only way they could take an objective is if they all attacked as a single group. But rif they are that coordinated, then it wouldn't matter if they were all pyros, or a mixed team. It would be a case of team coordination winning, rather than class selection.

As for the second point, (the game being situational): It's a good thing. A lone scout shouldn't be able to get through that room. Class selection and teamwork should make a difference. There are times a scout will be the class to perform some job, and there are time that a demoman is required. If you could get into, and out of, any situation, regardless of class, then why bother having classes? Each class has situation where they will excel, and situations where they they need help. That forces at least a minimum level of teamwork.

 

[slugg]

Well, let further explain my example and counterexample (about the situational thing).

In TF2, an engineer holding a defensive position against a scout has a CLEAR advantage. In fact, as I've previously said, as long as the engineer just holds his position repairing the sentry, there is NOTHING the scout can do. Seriously - a scout can't do anything against a sentry with an engineer behind it, especially with a dispenser nearby. This isn't taking into account when the engineer goes AFK or anything ridiculous like that - I'm talking about normal conditions.

Now, take the same scenario and put it into Team Fortress Classic. The engineer still has an EXTREMELY CLEAR advantage over the scout. However, the ability to defeat the engineer is not impossible anymore - it's merely IMPROBABLE. If the scout player is extremely skilled, it's possible for him to use shear speed, timing, and precision to get through the room/grab a flag or whatever. Still, 9 times out of 10, the engineer would win, but the influence of player skill is CLEARLY observable.

Furthermore, if there are 4 people on defense in TF2, and we're assuming that they're actually playing D, it's impossible for ONE player to capture a point/steal the flag, or what have you. Before you try to get all smartass on me, I said we're assuming that the defense is actually playing - not AFK or completely retarded. If you had 4 complete newbies actually trying to play the game versus the best TF2 offensive player in any league, the newbies would win.

Yet, in TFC, one EXTREMELY skilled offensive player COULD possibly capture the flag against 4 people. It's extremely hard to do, extremely rare, but it happens. This only happens when there's a big difference in player skill between the 4 man defense and the 1 man offense.

I'm just trying to show how a player's effectiveness in TF2 hardly scales with the player's overall skill.

I'm not saying TF2 is a bad game - it's really fun. I'm also not trying to come off as a TFC fanboy, I'm just using it as an example since they're directly comparable games. These same concepts I'm talking about are analogous to more games than just TFC.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: slugg
Furthermore, if there are 4 people on defense in TF2, and we're assuming that they're actually playing D, it's impossible for ONE player to capture a point/steal the flag, or what have you. Before you try to get all smartass on me, I said we're assuming that the defense is actually playing - not AFK or completely retarded. If you had 4 complete newbies actually trying to play the game versus the best TF2 offensive player in any league, the newbies would win.

I understand where you are going with this, because things like how the medic functions in TF2 with regards to uber/etc and how fast sentries acquire targets it can be difficult to out maneuver multiple people. However, I have gone on offense against 4, if not more, and won the battle. I've also defended against more than 4 people before. Sure, it may be a combination of their mistakes and my miracles, but the fact is that the scenario can play out in TF2. Granted, when comparing TF1, TFC and TF2, I'd rather prefer the TF1 method, where skill was the #1 factor, even more so than in TFC. I think when you promote skill, you promote amazing stunts that other players strive towards. For instance, right now people look to achievements to push themselves forward, artificial stats, but when a game has enough depth and skill they usually find these achievements in the players around them that are better.

To help exemplify this, the recent TF2 patched nerfed point blank shots from soldiers. Now some pyros may think this is a great thing because they feel they were being cheated frags or whatever. But this has the possibility to greatly affect gameplay for soldiers. I haven't personally tested this since the patch, but there is such a move called a wall jump or wall rj. It is the act where a player rocket jumps into the air and then rocket jumps off of other surfaces to gain additional speed / height. Due to the changes, I think these moves may now be causing full damage to the soldier, making them impossible to perform. Again, I have to test it, but this kind of limitation is the kind of thing that works against innovation promoting stale gameplay and a general lack of depth. You reward the newbie and punish the person who has actually put any time into your game.

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: slugg
Well, let further explain my example and counterexample (about the situational thing).

In TF2, an engineer holding a defensive position against a scout has a CLEAR advantage. In fact, as I've previously said, as long as the engineer just holds his position repairing the sentry, there is NOTHING the scout can do. Seriously - a scout can't do anything against a sentry with an engineer behind it, especially with a dispenser nearby. This isn't taking into account when the engineer goes AFK or anything ridiculous like that - I'm talking about normal conditions.

Now, take the same scenario and put it into Team Fortress Classic. The engineer still has an EXTREMELY CLEAR advantage over the scout. However, the ability to defeat the engineer is not impossible anymore - it's merely IMPROBABLE. If the scout player is extremely skilled, it's possible for him to use shear speed, timing, and precision to get through the room/grab a flag or whatever. Still, 9 times out of 10, the engineer would win, but the influence of player skill is CLEARLY observable.

Furthermore, if there are 4 people on defense in TF2, and we're assuming that they're actually playing D, it's impossible for ONE player to capture a point/steal the flag, or what have you. Before you try to get all smartass on me, I said we're assuming that the defense is actually playing - not AFK or completely retarded. If you had 4 complete newbies actually trying to play the game versus the best TF2 offensive player in any league, the newbies would win.

Yet, in TFC, one EXTREMELY skilled offensive player COULD possibly capture the flag against 4 people. It's extremely hard to do, extremely rare, but it happens. This only happens when there's a big difference in player skill between the 4 man defense and the 1 man offense.

I'm just trying to show how a player's effectiveness in TF2 hardly scales with the player's overall skill.

I'm not saying TF2 is a bad game - it's really fun. I'm also not trying to come off as a TFC fanboy, I'm just using it as an example since they're directly comparable games. These same concepts I'm talking about are analogous to more games than just TFC.

This is actually what I like about TF2. In TFC, a good player can still go rambo mode with any class and do well. Every class had grenades and the base shotguns were very powerful. In TF2 you're FORCED to work as a team. That's why there's so much voice chat going on because even in a pub, team work is so necessary.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
This is actually what I like about TF2. In TFC, a good player can still go rambo mode with any class and do well. Every class had grenades and the base shotguns were very powerful. In TF2 you're FORCED to work as a team. That's why there's so much voice chat going on because even in a pub, team work is so necessary.

Yea but if a good player can go rambo mode then it builds personalities in game. People on the red team have to actually acknowledge "holy shit skyhawk is playing for the other team, let's man up on defense this guy is good". When you work against skill you get the kind of team chatter you have now "2 heavies and a medic coming" few people care about who is behind those heavies and that medic because it ultimately gets lost in the shuffle. I know that isn't a 100% true, especially given what I just posted, but there is certainly a difference on some level due to downplaying skill for the sake of forcing teamwork.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: slugg
It's my opinion that TF2 is a very fun and well designed game, but it has (and has always had) two major issues with game balance. My definition of ruining the balance of the game is deeper than damage balance - it goes into overall game play.

First, if any ONE class is stacked on a team, the balance is completely ruined. This has always been the case, even before the class achievement unlockables were released. The class stacking issue is even more noticeable right now due to the recent pyro update. Why is it that when an entire team is one class, the team is able to dominate even harder? It makes no sense; isn't it more intuitive for a diverse team to overpower a class-stacked team? Example: try playing offense against a purely pyro defense on a CTF map.

Second, I feel that the game is too situational. What I mean by that is a lot of the time, it doesn't matter how good of a player you are - you're screwed. For example, if you're a scout trying to get through a room with a sentry, as long as the engineer camps his sentry gun, there is really NOTHING you can do. A counter example is that in Team Fortress Classic, even if the engineer had the advantage in this same scenario, an extremely skilled scout could still get through the room. I feel like TF2 doesn't depend enough on player skill. Please don't take these two examples as the ONLY examples, they're just the first two to pop up in my head.

I'm probably going to get a bunch of flame for this. What are your thoughts?

It's way easier to beat a team of all one class, so, you may just suck.

 

[mb]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
This is actually what I like about TF2. In TFC, a good player can still go rambo mode with any class and do well. Every class had grenades and the base shotguns were very powerful. In TF2 you're FORCED to work as a team. That's why there's so much voice chat going on because even in a pub, team work is so necessary.

Yea but if a good player can go rambo mode then it builds personalities in game. People on the red team have to actually acknowledge "holy shit skyhawk is playing for the other team, let's man up on defense this guy is good". When you work against skill you get the kind of team chatter you have now "2 heavies and a medic coming" few people care about who is behind those heavies and that medic because it ultimately gets lost in the shuffle. I know that isn't a 100% true, especially given what I just posted, but there is certainly a difference on some level due to downplaying skill for the sake of forcing teamwork.

I dunno.. I often hear "holy shit MIKE is playing for the other team, let's man up on defense this guy is good"

 

[mb]

Originally posted by: slugg
Well, let further explain my example and counterexample (about the situational thing).
<snip>

That's exactly how it should be, and why I like it so much.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
This is actually what I like about TF2. In TFC, a good player can still go rambo mode with any class and do well. Every class had grenades and the base shotguns were very powerful. In TF2 you're FORCED to work as a team. That's why there's so much voice chat going on because even in a pub, team work is so necessary.

Yea but if a good player can go rambo mode then it builds personalities in game. People on the red team have to actually acknowledge "holy shit skyhawk is playing for the other team, let's man up on defense this guy is good". When you work against skill you get the kind of team chatter you have now "2 heavies and a medic coming" few people care about who is behind those heavies and that medic because it ultimately gets lost in the shuffle. I know that isn't a 100% true, especially given what I just posted, but there is certainly a difference on some level due to downplaying skill for the sake of forcing teamwork.

I dunno.. I often hear "holy shit MIKE is playing for the other team, let's man up on defense this guy is good"

The only class that gets name recognition is sniper, which i happen to play alot. If your a good sniper, ppl will always avoid you and if your owning them for awhile as sniper then switch to another class, they seem to think your going to rape as that class as well.

 

[40Hands]

Without reading the entire thread, I was completely laying waste to the servers full of pyros. Heavy rocks!

 

[PepePeru]

yes, if you're a scout and you run in front of a SG you'll get wasted.
that's why you wait for your Teammates. Even if you don't communicate with them. Wait for some Rambo to run in there to draw fire.
I can't tell you how many times that works for me as a non-ubered pyro. it would work when youre a scout
let someone else draw the fire and then you can sneak right by that pesky SG and start filling that NG full of lead.

 

[imported_Imp]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
This is actually what I like about TF2. In TFC, a good player can still go rambo mode with any class and do well. Every class had grenades and the base shotguns were very powerful. In TF2 you're FORCED to work as a team. That's why there's so much voice chat going on because even in a pub, team work is so necessary.

Yea but if a good player can go rambo mode then it builds personalities in game. People on the red team have to actually acknowledge "holy shit skyhawk is playing for the other team, let's man up on defense this guy is good". When you work against skill you get the kind of team chatter you have now "2 heavies and a medic coming" few people care about who is behind those heavies and that medic because it ultimately gets lost in the shuffle. I know that isn't a 100% true, especially given what I just posted, but there is certainly a difference on some level due to downplaying skill for the sake of forcing teamwork.

Maybe I'm playing on the wrong server... while enemy reports do come in better when we're getting owned, especially from me (I don't use a mic so I rarely type anymore), the biggest increase falls in the realm of:
Team: "You guys suck."
All: "My team doesn't know what they're doing."
All: "Me and the other guy are the only people who know what they're doing."
All: "You guys are so lucky, our team is crap."
Ok, maybe I exagerate (a lot), but it's still hilarious.

Anyways, my regular server has a lot of pretty good regulars who can kill half the defending team, especially when they keep getting ubered repeatedly. However, they rarely ever get the intel or cap the point alone. It's usually these few people throwing the other team off enough, then drying themselves, so that the 5 guys following can help get close enough for maybe 1 guy to get the intel or cap the point. "We" may suck, but we come back in force. Also, the random criticals make sure that one guy or team stacking can rarely overpower everyone. Nothing beats a clump of pyros, a medic and heavy getting killed instantly cause the spamming pyro/soldier suddenly shot off a critical.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: slugg
Well, let further explain my example and counterexample (about the situational thing).

In TF2, an engineer holding a defensive position against a scout has a CLEAR advantage. In fact, as I've previously said, as long as the engineer just holds his position repairing the sentry, there is NOTHING the scout can do. Seriously - a scout can't do anything against a sentry with an engineer behind it, especially with a dispenser nearby. This isn't taking into account when the engineer goes AFK or anything ridiculous like that - I'm talking about normal conditions.

Your problem is you're thinking inside the box. You played TFC. I didn't. So I've brough no preconceptions into the game. I don't expect the tactics to be all the same. You shouldn't either because this is a different game. If you want TFC go play TFC. but don't call TF2 unbalanced because it's not TFC.

Now, take the same scenario and put it into Team Fortress Classic. The engineer still has an EXTREMELY CLEAR advantage over the scout. However, the ability to defeat the engineer is not impossible anymore - it's merely IMPROBABLE. If the scout player is extremely skilled, it's possible for him to use shear speed, timing, and precision to get through the room/grab a flag or whatever. Still, 9 times out of 10, the engineer would win, but the influence of player skill is CLEARLY observable.

Let me restate. 1v1 a scout vs engineer in TF2 goes to the scout 7 times out of 10. Get out of range of the SG and snipe the dispenser with your pistol. Once it's down the engineer will have no new metal. Now target the SG. If you run out of ammo, go get more or switch to your scatter gun. A scout is fast enough to dart in and out of sight and not allow the SG to get a shot off if he has cover.

Furthermore, if there are 4 people on defense in TF2, and we're assuming that they're actually playing D, it's impossible for ONE player to capture a point/steal the flag, or what have you. Before you try to get all smartass on me, I said we're assuming that the defense is actually playing - not AFK or completely retarded. If you had 4 complete newbies actually trying to play the game versus the best TF2 offensive player in any league, the newbies would win.

So you think 4 newbies could take one pro TF2 player the majority of the time? I think you're wrong. It would depend on the classes involved, but I'd give that one to the pro a good percentage of the time. But the game should be a little noob friendly, so if they were the right classes they'd have a fair shot. But that's a complete hypothetical. I can't think of a single time that a pro was alone against 4 noobs....there's always going to be an enemy pro or some medium players around.

Two nights ago, I took 5 guys to cap the final CP as a demo and I got no crits. I'm a really good player and I got a little lucky, but, nevertheless, it was 1v5 against other good non-AFK players and I came out on top. I play on a 16v16 server with lots of regulars, so these weren't noobs. I can't just do that every round. But we had just popper two ubers and almost capped it and took out the SGs, so it was a situation where I assessed things quickly and realized I had a shot if I pushed quickly. After killing those guys and capping the point, the rest of the team was about half a second from being on top of me.

Yet, in TFC, one EXTREMELY skilled offensive player COULD possibly capture the flag against 4 people. It's extremely hard to do, extremely rare, but it happens. This only happens when there's a big difference in player skill between the 4 man defense and the 1 man offense.

Probably just as common in TF2 with the right class. You typically only have 10 seconds to do it before the rest of their team respawns and joins the fray, but if you're a heavy damage class like demo or soldier, it's doable. I had a game a couple nights ago where I took a CP as a spy against a demo and soldier with my pistol. We were all standing on the CP at the time close quarters. I also have capped the flag solo many times as a spy....I've died 5x as many times trying.

I'm just trying to show how a player's effectiveness in TF2 hardly scales with the player's overall skill.

I'm not saying TF2 is a bad game - it's really fun. I'm also not trying to come off as a TFC fanboy, I'm just using it as an example since they're directly comparable games. These same concepts I'm talking about are analogous to more games than just TFC.

TF2 is superbly balanced. Noobs have a chance. Pros can excel. Nobody is going rambo without some lucky timing and enemy missteps. But, overall, success in the game is based on teamwork which is why it's so much more fun than playing a single player rambo game and kicking ass. If you're a heavy, you are going to get stabbed in the back or headshotted unless you have spys harassing the snipers and a medic watching your back and stand in the open for long or don't frequently turn to check your back. You can tell if you have effective spies because the guy who headhsotted you will show up in the console as having been stabbed. Otherwise, don't go out in the open and expect anything other than instant death. Switch to spy and go get them yourself, or switch to sniper and get them, or wait around in a concealed area and play some defense or rush out with a group and take cover. Tactics and personnel need to adjust on the fly which is why I love playing the game...every round is different.

Also to whoever said they seldom see games end in a draw, you don't play this game. Probably 1/5th of the matches I'm in end in a suddendeath. We've held CPs for 19 minutes only to lose it in the final 10 seconds many times. In fact most rounds probably end during the final 2-3 minutes with the very rare exception or when teams are stacked with no autobalance.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: 43st
Good post, completely agree. I think the balance issue is that they tried to make it unbalanced so the games were short. This was stated in some early developer interviews. Some of the best multiplayer matches I've ever played were complete deadlocks right up until the end, TF2 rarely has this.

funny, my team won a capture map last night at the last second - literally.

again, it's TEAM fortress. and whining about class imbalance is like complaining why your team of medics can't capture a point for shit. any time there is an asymmetric class system, it inherently requires balance of classes to provide complementary skill sets.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: 43st
Good post, completely agree. I think the balance issue is that they tried to make it unbalanced so the games were short. This was stated in some early developer interviews. Some of the best multiplayer matches I've ever played were complete deadlocks right up until the end, TF2 rarely has this.

funny, my team won a capture map last night at the last second - literally.

again, it's TEAM fortress. and whining about class imbalance is like complaining why your team of medics can't capture a point for shit. any time there is an asymmetric class system, it inherently requires balance of classes to provide complementary skill sets.

I've lost count of the number of time I've heard the words "OVERTIME" and held my breath as the final desperate struggle took place on the cap point.

 

[43st]

LOL, overtime being called just means the better team was playing defense. The fact that it went into overtime just means some sucker was near the goal a few times before getting mowed down. It certainly doesn't mean or imply balance.