Any tips for 'not throwing good money after bad'?

[mikeymikec]

That is, knowing when to say stop in terms of your car becoming too expensive to maintain over time?

The simple considerations AFAIK are things like "are this particular car's unusually expensive compared to others of its generation" and "if something sufficiently expensive dies compared to the probable value of the car".

In Oct 2012 I bought a Mazda 323 (built mid 2003, about 60k miles I think) based on my budget/cashflow available. £2.5k

May 2013: Service - oil, filter, front and rear brakes cleaned/adjusted. Two new front tyres, and a rear tyre was resealed as it was leaking. £288

Sept 2013: MOT (UK's mandatory yearly road worthiness test, it's fairly basic to ensure that you're not driving a death trap). No problems. ~£60

Dec 2013: Clunking sound checked, off-side (front and back) anti roll bars replaced, rear brake pipe washers leaking and replaced, rear brake pads replaced, rear break pipe banjo bolts replaced, and bleed out rear brakes. £215

I could hear the sound of dodgy bearings, so I brought the car in.
Apr 2014: Two rear wheel bearings replaced (more expensive because they include the hub) and a front wheel bearing. No stock for the brakes, so second visit required. £634
Apr 2014: Both front brake pads and discs replaced. £163

---

2013 looked like a fairly standard year for maintenance in terms of a car that gets probably 10-15k miles per year.

2014 is looking a little scary in comparison. I guess the work is fairly standard, but the price of those bearings was pretty shocking.

At this point I'm wondering whether the logic I should employ is that if the car costs more in 2015 than it does in 2014 to keep on the road, then I should think of getting rid of it (assuming something really serious doesn't occur). I don't have any car repair skills btw. I check basic things like oil, brake fluid levels, tyres, radiator fluid level, make sure the car isn't leaking, that sort of thing.

Thoughts?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

That last expense for replacing bearings is obscene but, I have no idea of repair costs in the UK.

 

[mikeymikec]

That last expense for replacing bearings is obscene but, I have no idea of repair costs in the UK.

The labour was £132, parts £499 (of which the two rear bearings were £432).

 

[kitatech]

OP's expenses, other than wheel bearings, have been MAINTENANCE rather than repairs as such...and as such there's no "bad" where money's been thrown...

...throwing money badly is when a year's expenses exceed monthly payments on a newer car, say 1/2 as old with 1/2 as many miles...that's my criterion...

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I just found those rear wheel bearings and hubs on ebay new with free shipping for $42.57 I think maybe you got scammed.

 

[rommelrommel]

Outside of the obscene parts costs for the bearings I'm just seeing maintenance.

Other scenario of bad money after good is commonly spending 50%+ the value of the car on repairs. Beaters usually fall into this scenario, or older higher end cars approching the end of their lifespan.

 

[Ksyder]

I just found those rear wheel bearings and hubs on ebay new with free shipping for $42.57 I think maybe you got scammed.

maybe... but some of those cheap wheel bearing off ebay are pretty junky. i put a set of them on my car and replaced them again within a year.

lol. edit- £432 for 2 bearings is nuts it sounds like. maybe it was the whole knuckle?

also... labor cost + the markup on parts will kill you financially. I find it to be a good idea to do work yourself if so inclined or find a friend/independent mechanic who can help out on the side, routinely needed chassis parts are not too bad to change with the car on jackstands.

 

[angminas]

People always talk about "the value of the car", but that only matters if you're planning to sell it. If you're planning to drive it for a long time, then spending money on new parts makes the car more valuable and reliable (generally speaking). Assuming, of course, that it's not a simply insanely unreliable car at its base, like a 1986 Hyundai or an old Jag or something.

But repairs rarely are anywhere near the cost of payments. And when you get another car, what problems will it have? You can drive a pristine car off the lot and drop the transmission in the road on the way home. It happens. With a car you keep, at least you have some idea of what you're dealing with. At least you have a list of "it's not that, I just replaced that".

 

[Ancalagon44]

This is exactly where I am now - I hope the OP wont mind if I share my story and ask for advice?

In February of 2011 I bought a 1994 Mercedes-Benz E320, for $3802 (South Africa Rands converted to today's USD). I was young and stupid. Anyway, I got a guy from the local Mercedes-Benz club to come with me to check the car out. He said it was a good buy, based on the fact that it had one owner from new, a relatively low amount of miles on it (121000 miles), and the engine looked good. So I bought it. I'm not blaming him, it was my decision.

Since then, I have spent over $6600 on servicing and maintenance. I can give you guys the list of things I have done, its quite extensive.

Fast forward to this year. I started thinking about buying a new car. I had a plan to keep my current car for 5 years, so that the total cost of ownership over the 5 years is lower. But then in February, I had to replace the alternator, radiator and viscous fan coupling, which cost $1330. And then I started thinking, perhaps I should get rid of the car sooner, like next year. Then, about a month later, one of the radiator hoses splits, and I am stranded until myself and a friend repair it. I sum up the amount of money that I spend on fuel, and realize that in an average month, I am spending $190 on fuel, and in months where I travel, its at least $285. So I start looking for a new car. However, this past week, suddenly the car develops trouble starting (bear in mind that it is autumn in South Africa at the moment, so its getting cooler quickly). I take it to a battery centre - they test it and find that it is fine, but tell me to bring it in the next day, to see if it keeps charge overnight. It doesnt, so I replace it. I also had to replace two tires. So, I think to myself, having just spent about $300 on it, I'll keep it for another two months to get some more life out of it.

However, this morning, still trouble starting! So it wasnt the battery. And now I'm thinking, heck I may have wasted $300, but I'm thinking of chalking it up to school fees and dumping this car ASAP. I am getting so sick of driving it, I have no confidence in it anymore. I am so tired of it. However, it still might make more financial sense to keep it for a bit, despite the exhorbitant fuel costs. What do you guys think?

 

[someone16]

Ancalagon44, all of the stuff you listed can happen to any older car that you buy. Just depends how lucky you are. Actually, at that mileage any part of the car may breakdown. You need to save a bit every month as your maintenance fund so you don't get surprised by the repairs.

It also depends if the person fixing your car is doing a proper job. They should have replaced the radiator hoses while doing the radiator. Would have saved you from being stranded.

 

[Ancalagon44]

At this point its not that I dont have the money - its that I dont want to spend it, and I dont want to constantly have these issues.

To me, any money spent on maintenance of an old car is money wasted. Its not a classic, its a 20 year old car that I am using as a daily driver.

I'll never buy an old car again.

 

[TridenT]

That is, knowing when to say stop in terms of your car becoming too expensive to maintain over time?

The simple considerations AFAIK are things like "are this particular car's unusually expensive compared to others of its generation" and "if something sufficiently expensive dies compared to the probable value of the car".

In Oct 2012 I bought a Mazda 323 (built mid 2003, about 60k miles I think) based on my budget/cashflow available. £2.5k

May 2013: Service - oil, filter, front and rear brakes cleaned/adjusted. Two new front tyres, and a rear tyre was resealed as it was leaking. £288

Sept 2013: MOT (UK's mandatory yearly road worthiness test, it's fairly basic to ensure that you're not driving a death trap). No problems. ~£60

Dec 2013: Clunking sound checked, off-side (front and back) anti roll bars replaced, rear brake pipe washers leaking and replaced, rear brake pads replaced, rear break pipe banjo bolts replaced, and bleed out rear brakes. £215

I could hear the sound of dodgy bearings, so I brought the car in.
Apr 2014: Two rear wheel bearings replaced (more expensive because they include the hub) and a front wheel bearing. No stock for the brakes, so second visit required. £634
Apr 2014: Both front brake pads and discs replaced. £163

---

2013 looked like a fairly standard year for maintenance in terms of a car that gets probably 10-15k miles per year.

2014 is looking a little scary in comparison. I guess the work is fairly standard, but the price of those bearings was pretty shocking.

At this point I'm wondering whether the logic I should employ is that if the car costs more in 2015 than it does in 2014 to keep on the road, then I should think of getting rid of it (assuming something really serious doesn't occur). I don't have any car repair skills btw. I check basic things like oil, brake fluid levels, tyres, radiator fluid level, make sure the car isn't leaking, that sort of thing.

Thoughts?

Maintenance items.

Maintenance item.

Brakes being replaced is maintenance. Other stuff, yeah, sure... Shit happens.

Not maintenance item. Again, shit happens.

Maintenance items.

I'd learn how to work on your car yourself. If you live in an apartment or in some situation where you can't work on your car in a driveway or garage... sucks to be you (That's called the cost of owning a car while living in such an arrangement). Replacing the brake pads and rotors can be difficult without good tools (Such as an impact wrench) but not impossible. And I find it takes maybe a few hours, but you save lots of $$$.

Anyway... your car doesn't really sound that bad.

I'll bitch about my situation to give some context to why I say that. My car is a 2000 honda civic ex coupe. Bought it used about 4 years ago for $4k. It has about 171,000 miles on it now and I've kept a religious maintenance schedule on it to keep it in good shape. A couple months ago it was stolen and the interior was thoroughly trashed. (Along with the windshield needing to be replaced and a few new lovely dents on the exterior) It was manageable in the sense that I could replace several items and get it back to somewhat close to what it was, but it would take a lot of work and replacement parts. Because I love my car, I decided to do that and didn't think it would actually be as bad as it turned out. At that same time, a lot of maintenance items were catching up. I needed to flush the ATF, change the oil and filter, flush the power steering fluid, get new windshield wipers, blahblahblah... more items that I'm forgetting. (And the timing belt+water pump was lurking in the background, whispering my name because it would need replacing in less than 10,000 miles and that's a large endeavor)

And, of course, my car was trashed inside. So, I had to rip out the carpet, all the seats, almost all of the interior trim (including the fucking trunk), and clean ALL OF IT (Not once, not twice, but like 5+ times). Not only that, my carpet was burnt in new places and was fine on its own before this... but after being stolen, it screamed to be replaced. So I had to order new carpet. (And that isn't like... oh, I just order new carpet and it arrives all pre-cut, perfectly formed for my car, and all the holes are there. I just swap it with the old one. Hell no. It comes molded and that's it. IT IS A HUGE PITA)

Let me just break down some of the costs that I've had to go through and how I now wish I just fucking bought a new car instead of digging myself so deep in a hole:
Carpet - $217. (Wrong color, btw. It's medium beige. Horrid color.)
New windshield - $200.
Used center console - $105.
Used steering column cover - $30.
New ignition lock module - $82.
New oil pan gasket and new valve cover gasket (Because the oil leak that my car was doing became way too much) - $27
Hondabond - $15 (Sealer for the gasket replacement)
Power steering fluid(2x12oz), ATF fluid, and new ATF bolt washer - $25+
New oil drain bolt because somehow the old one got lost - $8
New impact wrench from H&F because the old one broke plus some sockets because they too broke - $100.
New radio - $110.
Misc cable for radio - $10
New phone mount - $20
All the gas money I had to spend to go down to Portland to work on my car (because I can't work on it where I live) - $$$ (And I had to make those trips in a Jeep because my car was in bits and pieces)
New downstream/secondary O2 sensor (because that broke just very shortly after my car was taken apart; just bad timing) - $22 (Got lucky on that one; normally $70-100)
All the hours of work I put in - my sanity

There are many other things I could add, but I don't want to depress myself any further on this. (So much shit I still have to do with this car; including the carpet. It's STILL not in because it takes so fucking long to do. It takes way more energy than I have when I go down there) Last time I totaled it, it was looking to be well over $1500 in total costs. This is not including all the fucking hours that I've put into this car. It's a huge time sink.

What you have happening sounds pretty regular and nothing that's like, "omg, total money sink. Drop it." I have that car but I am in way too deep to give up now. (Looking forward to replacing the timing belt, all the other belts (because they will be due), and the water pump...)

 

[kitatech]

At this point its not that I dont have the money - its that I dont want to spend it, and I dont want to constantly have these issues.

To me, any money spent on maintenance of an old car is money wasted. Its not a classic, its a 20 year old car that I am using as a daily driver.

I'll never buy an old car again.

This is the correct answer...yes...lease or buy new and sell when the warranty period is up...

This is one reason why people buy new cars often...

 

[Ancalagon44]

I suppose I'm just wondering when to dump it. Should I wait a month or two longer given that I have just spent $300 on the f@cking thing? Or dump ASAP?

I have a decent service history for it, for 3 years, which will help it go I think.

 

[silicon]

That is, knowing when to say stop in terms of your car becoming too expensive to maintain over time?

The simple considerations AFAIK are things like "are this particular car's unusually expensive compared to others of its generation" and "if something sufficiently expensive dies compared to the probable value of the car".

In Oct 2012 I bought a Mazda 323 (built mid 2003, about 60k miles I think) based on my budget/cashflow available. £2.5k

May 2013: Service - oil, filter, front and rear brakes cleaned/adjusted. Two new front tyres, and a rear tyre was resealed as it was leaking. £288

Sept 2013: MOT (UK's mandatory yearly road worthiness test, it's fairly basic to ensure that you're not driving a death trap). No problems. ~£60

Dec 2013: Clunking sound checked, off-side (front and back) anti roll bars replaced, rear brake pipe washers leaking and replaced, rear brake pads replaced, rear break pipe banjo bolts replaced, and bleed out rear brakes. £215

I could hear the sound of dodgy bearings, so I brought the car in.
Apr 2014: Two rear wheel bearings replaced (more expensive because they include the hub) and a front wheel bearing. No stock for the brakes, so second visit required. £634
Apr 2014: Both front brake pads and discs replaced. £163

---

2013 looked like a fairly standard year for maintenance in terms of a car that gets probably 10-15k miles per year.

2014 is looking a little scary in comparison. I guess the work is fairly standard, but the price of those bearings was pretty shocking.

At this point I'm wondering whether the logic I should employ is that if the car costs more in 2015 than it does in 2014 to keep on the road, then I should think of getting rid of it (assuming something really serious doesn't occur). I don't have any car repair skills btw. I check basic things like oil, brake fluid levels, tyres, radiator fluid level, make sure the car isn't leaking, that sort of thing.

Thoughts?

Taking a course in car mechanics and repair would be a good idea since you do not know that much and it sounds like a ripoff from the prices you gave. Best defense is a course in car mechanics.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Rules to buy old cars by:

1) what is your mechanic skill set? For example, I consider myself a reasonably competent basic mechanic. I have tools and a basic diagnostic macine. I always buy the shop manual. I can replace all brake components, most cooling components, most suspension parts, cv joints, O2 sensors, heater cores, valve cover gaskets, etc, etc, I think you get the point. i would not try to do an engine or trans rebuild. Extensive body and fab work is also out of my league.

2) Match your skill set to the cars age, reliability, and wear. For example, I will not take on any 80's car, very few 90's cars, and prefer something in the 5-10 year old range. The things that generally need fixing on a 5-10 year old car are items I can do in the driveway.

3) I will not spend the money on a broken car if the estimated receipts exceed the cost of buying a replacement. For example, I blew the motor in a crown vic at the dragstip a couple seasons ago. A junkyard engine with labor would have cost more than a replacement, so off to the scrap heap it went.

4) Determine if your time is worth spending on wrenching. I personally have a love hate relationship with auto work. Love it when it works out, and can get increadibly frustrated when it doesn't. As I age it becomes increasingly difficult.

 

[kitatech]

I suppose I'm just wondering when to dump it. Should I wait a month or two longer given that I have just spent $300 on the f@cking thing? Or dump ASAP?

I have a decent service history for it, for 3 years, which will help it go I think.

Since $$$$ is not an issue...dump it when it's too d*** inconvenient to own it...when you can't rely on it as a dependable daily driver....

 

[halik]

DIY

People that can't diy should not be driving old or luxury cars. It's never cost effective to pay someone 100 bucks an hour to fix your $5K car.

 

[JCH13]

You're going to pay, or you're going to pay.

You get to choose: are you going to pay for normal maintenance and wear items, or are you going to pay for higher insurance premiums, registration (if your reg. is based on value/age), and depreciation?

You spent 2.5k on the car and 1.4k in maintenance over the last 18 months and driven, say, 20k miles.

If you bought a new Mazda3 18 months ago you'd have paid 17k (assuming you didn't finance, if you'd have to finance add interest onto that cost). In the US that would lead to a $3,000 USD depreciation if it were still in showroom condition 18 months and 20k miles later. No idea what depreciation you'd see in the UK, but I'm sure you could figure it out.

So, to compare, you paid $2,330 USD in maintenance instead of $3,000 USD in depreciation (plus maintenance); not counting differences in registration, insurance, loan interest, etc. So, unless your 2.5k car depreciated more than $700 USD, you're ahead of the game. Worst-case you're about breaking even I'd bet.

I'd say you're doing okay and that you're not throwing good money after bad. The cost of ownership of an older car is more apparent, and perhaps more erratic, but thus far you're doing just fine relative to a new car.

Whether or not a new car is worth the premium to you is your decision.

 

[desy]

For me once a car hits 11-12 yrs old or 200k miles its gone for all the reasons noted above. Even with maintenance, age just does things that I don't have the time or patience to constantly be patching up

 

[Ancalagon44]

Since $$$$ is not an issue...dump it when it's too d*** inconvenient to own it...when you can't rely on it as a dependable daily driver....

Not that money is no issue. I mean, I can afford to spend what I have to on the car. Its just that I feel everything I spend is a waste.

And recent reliability issues have really irritated me. Its not that a new car wont have reliability issues, its just that they are less likely, and if they occur, the dealership will sort them out under warranty or maintenance plan, and often provide a courtesy car while that occurs. So the impact to my lifestyle is much less severe.

The problem with South Africa is that public transport is severely underdeveloped compared to other countries. So I need my car for absolutely everything, which is why taking it in to an independent mechanic for a service is a pain in the ass. Of course, taking it to the dealership is too expensive. If I had a new car, all of the services and maintenance would be covered under the maintenance plan, which generally are good value for money. So it wouldnt be an issue.

And I suppose it has also got to the point where I dont like driving it anymore, and want something newer, to be quite honest. I'm a young man and want to drive a young man's car.

 

[kitatech]

Not that money is no issue. I mean, I can afford to spend what I have to on the car. Its just that I feel everything I spend is a waste.

If I had a new car, all of the services and maintenance would be covered under the maintenance plan, which generally are good value for money. So it wouldnt be an issue.

And I suppose it has also got to the point where I dont like driving it anymore, and want something newer, to be quite honest. I'm a young man and want to drive a young man's car.

THIS is a completely OTHER issue...not one of maintenance or repairs...but an issue everyone, nearly everyone experiences at one time or another...a "young man's car" may take MORE maintenance, mods, and repairs!