Any solid evidence on R420?

[rgreen83]

Most places I have read say R420 will have 12 pipes with slightly better compressions, but AT says here that it only 8 pipes with shader, AA, etc. improvements, but yet says pixel performance will be double.

How can that be with only 20% increase in clock? and where do the extra 50million transistors come from? surely not just the extra vertex units? If someone out there knows for sure, please let us know!

 

[Corporate Thug]

Ati is being really tight lipped about R420. if you remember, they blindsided the ti4600 and nvidia with the 9700 pro.

 

[Elcs]

So far the most conclusive evidence that I know of about the R420 is its an ATI development.

Everything else to me is pure speculation until the card is released. Its probably impossible to pick out genuine information from unsubstaniated rumours to pure guess-work and trolling.

 

[rgreen83]

So we dont trust anand about this? I didnt get that he thought he was speculating

 

[biostud]

They've kept the info on the new cards REALLY tight this time :/

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: biostud666
They've kept the info on the new cards REALLY tight this time :/

yeah, but like i said, nobody even expected the 9700 pro. atleast this time we knoe something is on the way

 

[Acanthus]

The only rumors that are floating around that seem legit, are these 2.

The R420 is a refresh of the 98XX design.
The R420 is a 12x1 design (over the R98XX 8x1)

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The only rumors that are floating around that seem legit, are these 2.

The R420 is a refresh of the 98XX design.
The R420 is a 12x1 design (over the R98XX 8x1)

so the r420 is not a whole new design like nv40?

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Acanthus
The only rumors that are floating around that seem legit, are these 2.

The R420 is a refresh of the 98XX design.
The R420 is a 12x1 design (over the R98XX 8x1)

so the r420 is not a whole new design like nv40?

From whats floating around, no.
Its a strong improvement of the R98XX design.

 

[remagavon]

No, the initial new design (r400) got scrapped for reasons unknown. AFAIK r420 is supposed to be about 2x the performance of rv360 (the 9600xt), but that's not confirmed.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: remagavon
No, the initial new design (r400) got scrapped for reasons unknown. AFAIK r420 is supposed to be about 2x the performance of rv360 (the 9600xt), but that's not confirmed.

It better do a helluva lot better that that.

 

[rgreen83]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: remagavon
No, the initial new design (r400) got scrapped for reasons unknown. AFAIK r420 is supposed to be about 2x the performance of rv360 (the 9600xt), but that's not confirmed.

It better do a helluva lot better that that.

Agreed, the 9800xt is already darn close to being 2x the 9600xt right now.

 

[ScrewFace]

I see nVidia coming back on top. This is not a company that'll fall flat on its face again vis a vis the GeForce FX 5800 Ultra and having poor pixel shader performance in Direct X 9.0b. It looks like nVidia is going to have the leadership is so desperately craves with 16 pipelines.

Can't know for sure, of course, until ATI and nVidia release their new GPUs. :beer:

 

[Pete]

I doubt NV40 will be a whole new design, either. Neither ATI nor nV are going to throw away a decade of hardware and software development--they probably can't afford to.

That AT doc wasn't posted by Anand, and you can see I asked the author about the fillrate/pixel pipe discrepancy, to which he replied that he just posted the doc, he didn't analyze it.

Initial R420 speculation was 3 * RV350 (so 3 * 4x1 = 12x1, courtesy of Hellbinder), then it went to eight "extreme" pipes (the word "extreme" seems to be bandied about quite a bit WRT R420), now it's back to 12x1 (maybe even out of a possible 16x1). So I'm not sure we can conclude anything at this point, other than it'll be faster than R360 (not RV360).

 

[rgreen83]

Originally posted by: ScrewFace
I see nVidia coming back on top. This is not a company that'll fall flat on its face again vis a vis the GeForce FX 5800 Ultra and having poor pixel shader performance in Direct X 9.0b. It looks like nVidia is going to have the leadership is so desperately craves with 16 pipelines.

Can't know for sure, of course, until ATI and nVidia release their new GPUs. :beer:

Why are we talking about nvidia? this thread was about the R420, sorry just dont want it to turn into another nvidia vs. ati thread

 

[rgreen83]

Originally posted by: Pete
I doubt NV40 will be a whole new design, either. Neither ATI nor nV are going to throw away a decade of hardware and software development--they probably can't afford to.

That AT doc wasn't posted by Anand, and you can see I asked the author about the fillrate/pixel pipe discrepancy, to which he replied that he just posted the doc, he didn't analyze it.

Initial R420 speculation was 3 * RV350 (so 3 * 4x1 = 12x1, courtesy of Hellbinder), then it went to eight "extreme" pipes (the word "extreme" seems to be bandied about quite a bit WRT R420), now it's back to 12x1 (maybe even out of a possible 16x1). So I'm not sure we can conclude anything at this point, other than it'll be faster than R360 (not RV360).

It wasnt posted by anand? it has his name listed first under author

 

[Pete]

Sorry, I just remember another ATer replying to me in the comments. To be blunt, I don't think Anand knows (or possibly even cares--he's finishing school, getting married, playing with Macs... ) as much about GPUs as CPUs, as his articles on the subject have dropped in accuracy and thoroughness (IMO), so I tend to take his word on the subject with a pinch of salt. Anyway, the doc that AT posted was self-contradictory, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

I think.

Still, the possibility of ATi going to 8 "extreme" pipes, essentially moving beyond the basic pipe concept of the Voodoo era into the more nebulous FX-type seas of shaders may be true. But that's me speculating above and beyond the call of duty. I really don't expect anything radical until R500/NV50 and DX10.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Pete
I doubt NV40 will be a whole new design, either. Neither ATI nor nV are going to throw away a decade of hardware and software development--they probably can't afford to.

That AT doc wasn't posted by Anand, and you can see I asked the author about the fillrate/pixel pipe discrepancy, to which he replied that he just posted the doc, he didn't analyze it.

Initial R420 speculation was 3 * RV350 (so 3 * 4x1 = 12x1, courtesy of Hellbinder), then it went to eight "extreme" pipes (the word "extreme" seems to be bandied about quite a bit WRT R420), now it's back to 12x1 (maybe even out of a possible 16x1). So I'm not sure we can conclude anything at this point, other than it'll be faster than R360 (not RV360).

So uhhh, what do you call the geforce, geforce 3, and geforce FX? they were all total redesigns.
How about the R7000, R8500, R97XX?
How about the G450, G550, Parhelia?

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: rgreen83

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: remagavon
No, the initial new design (r400) got scrapped for reasons unknown. AFAIK r420 is supposed to be about 2x the performance of rv360 (the 9600xt), but that's not confirmed.

It better do a helluva lot better that that.

Agreed, the 9800xt is already darn close to being 2x the 9600xt right now.

i think you are overestimating the performance difference between the 9600XT and the 9800XT

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1522&page=4

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: shady06

Originally posted by: biostud666
They've kept the info on the new cards REALLY tight this time :/

yeah, but like i said, nobody even expected the 9700 pro. atleast this time we knoe something is on the way

Uh, it wasn't exactly a blindside. Everyone knew ATi was releasing a card and everyone knew it would be their first DX9 part, and pretty much everyone knew it would be faster than the Ti 4600 because it was supposed to compete with NV30....

In other words, myself and everyone else in the know about videocards sure as hell expected the 9700 Pro. We didn't really expect it to outdo NV30, but that's no big shock - just a minor "hmmm...interesting".

 

[formulav8]

When are the new Video Cards from ATI and NVidia supposed to be released? Or at least reviewed by hardware sites? I hope soon so I can get a Radeon 9700 or 9800 at a sub-$100 price Probably be awhile for that price though.


Jason

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

So uhhh, what do you call the geforce, geforce 3, and geforce FX? they were all total redesigns.
How about the R7000, R8500, R97XX?
How about the G450, G550, Parhelia?

GF1 was 4x1. GF2, 3, 4, and FX were, at their core, 4x2. How are those redesigns, let alone "total" ones? Do you think that nV was able to "totally" redesign their GPUs and maintain a roughly six-month cycle?

R100 to R200 was a slightly bigger leap, in that ATi went from 2x3 to 4x2. PS1.4 in R200 was also somewhat of a leap forward, evident in the fact that R300's PS2.0 is similar to PS1.4 in rendering capabilities, with the main exception of FP.

Matrox, well, they really dropped off the gaming map after G400. IIRC, G550 was a step back, or at least not a step forward, and we all know that Parhelia was already a generation behind in terms of performance at the time of its release.

The point is, both ATi and nV have built on past designs more than they've started from scratch. GPU design seems to be to be more an evolutionary than revolutionary process, particularly with GPU's increasing complexity.

Insomniak, I was pretty surprised by R300. Remember that ATi never had the performance crown before (8500 laucnh was spoiled by new GF3 drivers and then GF4), and with R300 ATi not only took the crown but delivered 2x performance with demanding scenes, along with nicer AA and apparently decent drivers. It was the total package, and given ATi's track record with the 7200 and 8500, I didn't expect ATi to clean up so handily. I didn't expect nV to be caught flat-footed, either, but I suppose I underestimated the toll taken by NV2A and by integrating 3dfx's engineers.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Pete

Originally posted by: Acanthus

So uhhh, what do you call the geforce, geforce 3, and geforce FX? they were all total redesigns.
How about the R7000, R8500, R97XX?
How about the G450, G550, Parhelia?

GF1 was 4x1. GF2, 3, 4, and FX were, at their core, 4x2. How are those redesigns, let alone "total" ones? Do you think that nV was able to "totally" redesign their GPUs and maintain a roughly six-month cycle?

R100 to R200 was a slightly bigger leap, in that ATi went from 2x3 to 4x2. PS1.4 in R200 was also somewhat of a leap forward, evident in the fact that R300's PS2.0 is similar to PS1.4 in rendering capabilities, with the main exception of FP.

Matrox, well, they really dropped off the gaming map after G400. IIRC, G550 was a step back, or at least not a step forward, and we all know that Parhelia was already a generation behind in terms of performance at the time of its release.

The point is, both ATi and nV have built on past designs more than they've started from scratch. GPU design seems to be to be more an evolutionary than revolutionary process, particularly with GPU's increasing complexity.

Insomniak, I was pretty surprised by R300. Remember that ATi never had the performance crown before (8500 laucnh was spoiled by new GF3 drivers and then GF4), and with R300 ATi not only took the crown but delivered 2x performance with demanding scenes, along with nicer AA and apparently decent drivers. It was the total package, and given ATi's track record with the 7200 and 8500, I didn't expect ATi to clean up so handily. I didn't expect nV to be caught flat-footed, either, but I suppose I underestimated the toll taken by NV2A and by integrating 3dfx's engineers.

Oh i see so all engines in cars that have 8 cylinders were derived from each other.

Edit: and you totally missed my point, performance has NOTHING to do with what i said. I was saying that GPUs are redesigned from the ground up all the time.

 

[Acanthus]

I never claimed that they redesign the GPUs every 6 months. They Design a GPU, refresh it. Then design a new one, refresh it. Its a 1 year cycle.

 

[rgreen83]

Originally posted by: shady06

Originally posted by: rgreen83

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: remagavon
No, the initial new design (r400) got scrapped for reasons unknown. AFAIK r420 is supposed to be about 2x the performance of rv360 (the 9600xt), but that's not confirmed.

It better do a helluva lot better that that.

Agreed, the 9800xt is already darn close to being 2x the 9600xt right now.

i think you are overestimating the performance difference between the 9600XT and the 9800XT

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1522&page=4

nope, as your link shows, at higher resolutions(and they dont even have AA/AF on) the frames are near double. If I wanted to play games at 10x7 with no eye candy I wouldnt care about R420 or have a 9800xt because those are the only situations which stress these cards.