any reason why the people on the OpenBSD newgroups are such asses?

[xyyz]

recently, i've been trying to familiarize myself with the OS. i must say that the people on that group are real jackasses. it's one thing to not help, but it's another to waste time with smart-ass remarks.

if ya' got enough time to write a snide remark, i'm sure you can spend equal time simply giving a one line remark about questions.

does anyone know of any OpenBSD specific forums that are stocked with helpful people and not these *blind asumption* pasty-faced no-lifed-never-kissed-anyone-lame-asses?

 

[Chaotic42]

Because everyone who doesn't use Windows is smarter than you.



Seriously, it's like that with Linux, or at least it was. Many (not all) people who use BSD are professionals. It would be like asking a bunch of mechanics how to play a CD. Maybe that's a bad example, but it's all I've got right now.

You can try the OS forum. There are a few people who use BSD there. I installed it on one of my computers, but I found that I could just do everything in Debian, and I'm far more familiar with that than I am with BSD.

I hope you can find a nice place. If you do, why not post it here in this thread in case anyone is having similar problems?

 

[Aves]

Originally posted by: xyyz
does anyone know of any OpenBSD specific forums that are stocked with helpful people and not these *blind asumption* pasty-faced no-lifed-never-kissed-anyone-lame-asses?

I don't know of ANY forums that can fit that bill.


Like Chaotic42 you could always try the OS Forum here. Good luck.

 

[BDawg]

The OpenBSD people are even worse than any other group. Their opinion is if you're using their OS, you'd better know what you're doing. Why they have to be so uptight about it, I don't know.

 

[xyyz]

i did get some good help from here... and i do utilize the OS forum when i have questions, but i don't get it.

i'm new to the OS. i have legit questions. i'm not asking questions like, "so like why do they call this flavor of linux OpenBSD?" i have some problems, and i'm asking for a bit of explanation. i figure it's easier not to respond than to be snippy. afterall, the time it took them to write something idiotic is about as much time as it'll take for them to answer my questions.

if this is their professional behavior... i'm surpised they're not on the unemployment line (many of them probably are)... i mean who the hell would like to work with someone who is this bitter.

and not all the advocates/users of the BSD's are that bad. FreeBSD's groups are notoriously friendly and helpful... even if you ask a stupid question, they are quite polite in pointing out where you should go.

here's an example.

i just asked something about FreeBSD 5.1 on the sparc... apparently, it was better posted in another group.

In article <ZrKtb.2329$m84.1439653@news1.news.adelphia.net>, Sameer wrote:
> i dont know if this belongs here or on freebsd-sparc64.

Ask on FreeBSD-questions and see if they'll tell you to try FreeBSD-sparc64.


> however, i'm having an issue with installing FreeBSD 5.1 on an Ultra 1 200E
> or an Ultra 2.
>
[snip]
>
> from what i've been about to find, i can't find any tutorial on how to
> install the OS on these types of machines. can anyone point me to a
> resource to install the OS on these types of machines?

Contributing one is welcome, as (AFAIK) there is none, yet.
Such is the state of the 5-branch: A developers playground.

Try and boot over network to the serial console and tell us how you
fare. If you search for hints with google you'll find lots of
references to a modified loader.nfs (or something like that) -- don't
bother, the functionality has been integrated into the standard loader.

now here's the ass on the other place...

> noone has any tips for me... ?
>

Why do you assume that we want to invest time in checking one persons
ruleset if he doesn't bother to test it himself?

There are plenty examples out there. Use those. Come back when you have
a problem.

EJ
--

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: xyyz
recently, i've been trying to familiarize myself with the OS. i must say that the people on that group are real jackasses. it's one thing to not help, but it's another to waste time with smart-ass remarks.

if ya' got enough time to write a snide remark, i'm sure you can spend equal time simply giving a one line remark about questions.

does anyone know of any OpenBSD specific forums that are stocked with helpful people and not these *blind asumption* pasty-faced no-lifed-never-kissed-anyone-lame-asses?

Gee, that sounds like the kind of help you get from some of the ATOT community....

 

[LS20]

because geeks pride themselves in knowing things most normal human being do not care to know about

 

[djdrastic]

bsdforums.org

We will welcome you with open arms

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: LS20
because geeks pride themselves in knowing things most normal human being do not care to know about

i think if you take the time to study, you would come up with better answers.

kinda like if someone on here asked in our "general forum", why a athlon at 2.2 is more or less equavalent to a p4 3.0 - 3.2.

or asking in our "operating system forum", how do i use fdisk, i've never used DOS before.

pick up a book, learn, then asks more meaningful quiestions.

i think its that they would answer questions, but not "basic" questions that can be found by doing your own research

 

[slick230]

Originally posted by: jjyiz28

Originally posted by: LS20
because geeks pride themselves in knowing things most normal human being do not care to know about

i think if you take the time to study, you would come up with better answers.

kinda like if someone on here asked in our "general forum", why a athlon at 2.2 is more or less equavalent to a p4 3.0 - 3.2.

or asking in our "operating system forum", how do i use fdisk, i've never used DOS before.

pick up a book, learn, then asks more meaningful quiestions.

i think its that they would answer questions, but not "basic" questions that can be found by doing your own research

And does not asking a question in the correct forum constitute "research"? If you don't have or don't want to post an answer or a constructive reply, then don't. I don't know why so many obscenely computer literate people feel the need to berate and belittle others who do not have the same technical prowess as themselves. Seems to me like it's a compensating reaction. It's like that skit on SNL that Jimmy Fallon used to do, about the tech support guy. His attitude, while comical, was spot on in regards to techie types.

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: slick230

Originally posted by: jjyiz28

Originally posted by: LS20
because geeks pride themselves in knowing things most normal human being do not care to know about

i think if you take the time to study, you would come up with better answers.

kinda like if someone on here asked in our "general forum", why a athlon at 2.2 is more or less equavalent to a p4 3.0 - 3.2.

or asking in our "operating system forum", how do i use fdisk, i've never used DOS before.

pick up a book, learn, then asks more meaningful quiestions.

i think its that they would answer questions, but not "basic" questions that can be found by doing your own research

And does not asking a question in the correct forum constitute "research"? If you don't have or don't want to post an answer or a constructive reply, then don't. I don't know why so many obscenely computer literate people feel the need to berate and belittle others who do not have the same technical prowess as themselves. Seems to me like it's a compensating reaction. It's like that skit on SNL that Jimmy Fallon used to do, about the tech support guy. His attitude, while comical, was spot on in regards to techie types.

you see, but that was NOT the correct forum. some boards are more technical than others. i like anandtech cuz its in the middle, and its where i feel i fit. but i don't dare post somewhere like beyond3d asking about stupid overclock advice. i wont ask this at at a certification forum (cramsession.com) either cuz im sure most of them will give me a textbook answer not too since it will lessen the life of your card, but anandtech is perfect, and perhaps sharky or [HardF].

just because its a pc forum doesn't make it all the same. some, like beyond3d has their own niche. i take it people in openBSD newsgroups are made up of more advanced uses, which was stated that most are professionals anyways.


edit: i dont know y it black the background. cant change it. huh

 

[xyyz]

Originally posted by: jjyiz28

Originally posted by: LS20
because geeks pride themselves in knowing things most normal human being do not care to know about

i think if you take the time to study, you would come up with better answers.

kinda like if someone on here asked in our "general forum", why a athlon at 2.2 is more or less equavalent to a p4 3.0 - 3.2.

or asking in our "operating system forum", how do i use fdisk, i've never used DOS before.

pick up a book, learn, then asks more meaningful quiestions.

i think its that they would answer questions, but not "basic" questions that can be found by doing your own research

slick230, bravo... i totally agree with you.

what consititues "time to study"? this is purely subjective. simply because someone is not as savy as you, doesn't mean that their question is less valid. if you don't like a question someone is asking, there is no law stating that you need to be a jerk and issue some condescending remark. just quash any desire to be an ass and move on to the next question.

at times asking questions is pretty taxing, precisely for the reason that you've demonstrated. you have someone who will take the piss, and make you feel pretty crappy for your honest desire for knowledge.

anyone can pick up a series of books and read them, but if you don't get it... you don't get it. that's when you need to ask... and if you don't like the question... just don't say anything... you can discuss the stupidity of the question asker on your own time with the other techo-elitists.

sheez... thank goodness they're aren't more teachers like you in this world... people would fear asking anything.

the funny thing is that these elite people are simply arrogant... not as knowledgable as they like to let on...

perfect example. Greg Lehey... who writes the very popular "The Complete FreeBSD"

anyways, this bearded bastard knows nothing about switching. i remember him spewing something about how there is no use for a hub and he was talking about switching. the guy knew NOTHING about either topic. when i corrected him, he became extremely hostile... eventhough he was pulling half of what he was saying from his ass.

for many of these people, it's not about helping or not helping... it's about making someone feel stupid so that they can feel a buzz.

 

[Vic]

Because they're mostly nerds who are living in their mom's basment at 40 years old and are still virgins.

 

[xyyz]

you see, but that was NOT the correct forum. some boards are more technical than others. i like anandtech cuz its in the middle, and its where i feel i fit. but i don't dare post somewhere like beyond3d asking about stupid overclock advice. i wont ask this at at a certification forum (cramsession.com) either cuz im sure most of them will give me a textbook answer not too since it will lessen the life of your card, but anandtech is perfect, and perhaps sharky or [HardF].

just because its a pc forum doesn't make it all the same. some, like beyond3d has their own niche. i take it people in openBSD newsgroups are made up of more advanced uses, which was stated that most are professionals anyways.

looks like you didn't do your research there...

i posed on openbsd-misc

here's the synopsis of the mailing list:

misc
User questions and answers, general questions. This is the most active list. Please, read the FAQ and the installation documents, and see How to report a Problem before posting.

maybe i didn't read the FAQ or i didn't know how to report a problem properly? nopes... i did chief. i posted all relevant information, gave a little background of myself and why i had an issue, and i scoured several sources before i asked the question... ESPECIALLY the FAQ.



BTW... maybe the main reason Theo was thrown outta the NetBSD core by his asshair was 'cause he was such an asshole.... just speculating though....

 

[jjyiz28]

Originally posted by: xyyz

you see, but that was NOT the correct forum. some boards are more technical than others. i like anandtech cuz its in the middle, and its where i feel i fit. but i don't dare post somewhere like beyond3d asking about stupid overclock advice. i wont ask this at at a certification forum (cramsession.com) either cuz im sure most of them will give me a textbook answer not too since it will lessen the life of your card, but anandtech is perfect, and perhaps sharky or [HardF].

just because its a pc forum doesn't make it all the same. some, like beyond3d has their own niche. i take it people in openBSD newsgroups are made up of more advanced uses, which was stated that most are professionals anyways.

looks like you didn't do your research there...

i posed on openbsd-misc

here's the synopsis of the mailing list:

misc
User questions and answers, general questions. This is the most active list. Please, read the FAQ and the installation documents, and see How to report a Problem before posting.

maybe i didn't read the FAQ or i didn't know how to report a problem properly? nopes... i did chief. i posted all relevant information, gave a little background of myself and why i had an issue, and i scoured several sources before i asked the question... ESPECIALLY the FAQ.



BTW... maybe the main reason Theo was thrown outta the NetBSD core by his asshair was 'cause he was such an asshole.... just speculating though....

dude, who cares waht the synopsis says, if that particular newsgroup is made up of professionals, don't expect them to answer anyones stupid question.

im sure there is a BEGINNERS newsgroups on openbsd. they're not putting someone down to feel better, they just don't want their forum to be dumbed down. they want their forum to be made up of professionals, and keep others out. nothign wrong with that.

not all forums are made the same regardless of whether they cover the same content or not.

example: just because its a "windows" forum, im not just gonna assume they're gonna answer every question. maybe its like a hardcore tech forum, and if you ask them how to change the background color of your desktop, they are gonna make you feel unwelcome. there are mickey mouse forums for questions like that.

 

[conjur]

Because they are.......NERDS!!

 

[Maverick]

thats stupidity...the least they could do is point you to a FAQ somewhere. These guys are a right they're just nerds that think they're all high and mighty because they use OpenBSD.

The worst part is they're slowing the adoption of their own OS by being pricks about helping people get started.

 

[xyyz]

dude, who cares waht the synopsis says, if that particular newsgroup is made up of professionals, don't expect them to answer anyones stupid question.

what are you talking about? what do you mean "what the synopsis says"? this is part of the FAQ... this is what they want you to read before you ask questions. i followed THEIR directions before i posted.

perhaps the FAQ should say, "if you got a novice level question... piss off... 'cause this place aint for n00bs like you."

im sure there is a BEGINNERS newsgroups on openbsd. they're not putting someone down to feel better, they just don't want their forum to be dumbed down. they want their forum to be made up of professionals, and keep others out. nothign wrong with that.

that's the thing... THIS is the place. there is no "beginning user" forum. this is where you post your questions.

not all forums are made the same regardless of whether they cover the same content or not.

the onus is on them to specify what questions are acceptable... and what aren't. perhaps this way people like me wont post there... and they can all fantasize and beat off about the OpenBSD kernel.

example: just because its a "windows" forum, im not just gonna assume they're gonna answer every question. maybe its like a hardcore tech forum, and if you ask them how to change the background color of your desktop, they are gonna make you feel unwelcome. there are mickey mouse forums for questions like that.

you missed the point. noone is saying they HAVE to answer. i am saying they shouldn't be assholes about answering. if they don't like the question... ignore it and carry on with your circle jerk with theo raatds(sp?) picture on some sears catalog model.

like i said... the onus is on them... if you look at freebsd... they tell you of other forums that can be of help... besides, the freebsd are equally as hardcore and hardentled, freebsd is every bit as secure as openbsd... but you dont see those guys acting like odd bitches.

pure speculation again... but i think that the starwars kid is something these haughty OpenBSD goons aspire to become socially.

 

[FoBoT]

they told you "RTFM" ?

*BSD and *nix dudes are often that way

not sure why it is so common

 

[slick230]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
they told you "RTFM" ?

*BSD and *nix dudes are often that way

not sure why it is so common

Probably because they're all fatassed nerds trying desperately to code that blonde in the red dress from the Matrix.

 

[xyyz]

pretty much... and the thing is that i did that... did it several times.

the problem with the techno-dork is that the manual is written in a way that only other techo-dorks understand it... so you need another manual to decipher what they wrote... and these guys don't want to help you understand the manual.

i digress... anyways... yes i did do reading... i did quite a bit of it. when i was asking for specifics they got pissed.


on a separate note....

so is it the group consensus that these guys are all big nerds?

 

[FoBoT]

openbsd is one of the darkest lores, only the hardest core dudes go there

are you going openbsd vs freebsd for a specific reason?

i would like to build a transparent bridging firewall box , i found some info on doing it with openbsd, but i haven't had time to try and finger it out

 

[xyyz]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
openbsd is one of the darkest lores, only the hardest core dudes go there

are you going openbsd vs freebsd for a specific reason?

i would like to build a transparent bridging firewall box , i found some info on doing it with openbsd, but i haven't had time to try and finger it out

as for the openbsd v. freebsd remark, i wanted to illustrate the difference between personalities. freebsd is no less "hard-core" than openbsd, however, the people are much more helpful, friendly and encouraging. the OpenBSD camp should take a lesson from this page. you don't need to be an asshole to support a very good and stable OS.

honestly... there's no real difference between setting up the boxes, as far as general tasks are concerned. only if you're a coder, will you notice the differences. in general, OpenBSD just shuts stuff down be default... and you need to run specific services manually after the install.

honestly, i'd have gone FreeBSD on this machine, but as you can see from the post, getting it to work on an sbus based sparc64 machine is something that you'll have a hard time doing, considering there isn't any documentation out there.

as a matter of fact the OpenBSD people used to use ipfw, until something happend... *again speculation* something to do with their rotten attitude perhaps... where they got annoyed and said "screw you" and developed pf.

djdrastic, good call on the forum you recommended... so far people seem pretty cool.

 

[n0cmonkey]

I'm bored, so I'll reply

BTW... maybe the main reason Theo was thrown outta the NetBSD core by his asshair was 'cause he was such an asshole.... just speculating though....

Reading would help here. Here.

Probably because they're all fatassed nerds...

To quote Theo de Raadt's home page:
I'm an obsessive mountain biker: I like mud and despise "wooded back-alleys" (what most people call logging roads). My previous bike was a Rocky Mountain `Experience' with Manitou Comp front shocks; SPD's completing the experience. Here is a friend lying with it. The new bike is a Rocky Mountain `Instinct' -- Marizochi Z2 Bam shocks, Vanilla Float rear shock, and disk brakes for better operation in wet weather. Two pictures are available, from after a big ride we did... a rainbow shot and a ride-by.

I'm a caver. I've been caving a little in the Yorkshire Pot system in the Crowsnest Pass area -- horrible muddy, cold, wet crawls. I went to Chaipas state in Mexico for 5 weeks in 1995, and also for about 2 months in 1996 where I managed the data we collected on my laptop computer. We used the caving software On Station, which was written by a friend of mine. Perhaps I'll get some of my own pictures soon; in the meantime check Andy's description and pictures. I do not think I will go back to the area though because crime has increased so much.

I'm a mountain scrambler (ie. "peak bagger"). In recent times I have been attacking the upper Kananaskis area. Lightning normally seeks me out, but I got off lucky this last year. Here's a nice big picture. About every year I take the opportunity to go climb one large mountain somewhere outside Canada: been up Shasta (California), La Malinche and Orizaba (Mexico), Santa Maria and Pacaya (Guatemala)... gotta add some more to that list soon.

I don't think fatass applies

The worst part is they're slowing the adoption of their own OS by being pricks about helping people get started.

They don't care. If no one used it, they would still code it. Unlike other OSS/FS projects, they don't care about taking over the world. Just making a good system that they can use.

Flaming on a mailing list where the originator could see it is only slightly worse than flaming on a web forum where the people you're flaming won't see it. I PMed you a link to an OpenBSD newbies list. Try that out. I don't bother with misc@ (although I do read some of it) because of the flaming.

Now, to take a look at the email you sent:

Hi all,
I'm looking for some feeback on my pf.conf file.

I wonder what the list would look like if everyone posted their pf.conf...

I think it looks good, but i was curoius about a couple things.

You don't mention any errors yet...

The pass rule for the lan seems ok to me, but the examples i see often have a seperate rule for in and out.

What do the block rules look like for those examples? Do they just block in, or do they block everything (block all vs. block in all)?

Is there a security implication? Also the ordering of the filter rules, is
there anything that ought to be moved up so it evaluates sooner? Thanks.

Possibly, read the FAQs. If you understand how PF's ruleset works, you can better understand how to place your rules. Running the ruleset and seeing what works and what does not work will also help.

Lastly, the documentation for OpenBSD is great. Personally, I haven't found a project with better documentation (subjective, I know). The answers to your questions could be found either in the documentation, or in the documentation mixed with a bit of thought. Stepping away from the project for a bit to clear my mind usually helps me.

 

[xyyz]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I'm bored, so I'll reply

BTW... maybe the main reason Theo was thrown outta the NetBSD core by his asshair was 'cause he was such an asshole.... just speculating though....

Reading would help here. Here.

ummm... that's THEO's viewpoint... don't base your decision based on soley on the one you advocate. i'm sure the netbsd core has quite a bit to say as to why he was thrown out.

Probably because they're all fatassed nerds...

I don't think fatass applies

okay so theo's just an ass... i'm sure not all openbsd advocates are extreme mountain bikers

considering how big an ass he is, meaning theo... don't be suprised if he gains negative karma points and eats if where he becomes a veggie.

The worst part is they're slowing the adoption of their own OS by being pricks about helping people get started.

They don't care. If no one used it, they would still code it. Unlike other OSS/FS projects, they don't care about taking over the world. Just making a good system that they can use.

Flaming on a mailing list where the originator could see it is only slightly worse than flaming on a web forum where the people you're flaming won't see it. I PMed you a link to an OpenBSD newbies list. Try that out. I don't bother with misc@ (although I do read some of it) because of the flaming.

they're stupid then... they should re-examine their model of operation. this is no way to conduct anything successfully.

Now, to take a look at the email you sent:

look here's the bottom line... i have issues with understanding syntax and reasons for syntax. you know what... if people want to post their pf.conf files... who cares. if they don't like it the should make express mention of that in the FAQ. and it's not like they need to respond and be an ass about things. they can just ignore the posts.

i think you're making a big assumption that i didn't do reading in saying that i should read the FAQ... how many times should one read it? things don't suddenly become clear just because you read something over and over and over and over again. i want to UNDERSTAND how the rules work. i want to understand the syntax. trial and error methods are stupid and a waste of time. this is my point. i don't want to give a pf.conf file and the errors and have people correct the errors. i want to understand why things work they way they are? why is the syntax the way it is? this will make me much better form proper packet filter rules.

you forget something... we ain't all as bright as some people when it comes to packet filter rules. you can show me all the examples in the world, but they will make no difference to me. i need someone to explain things differently.

i wish things were more where you can simply look at a book and learn. hell that way you'd have no need for instructors or any institutions where you need someone to teach you things... what a great place the world would be...

btw... i disagree... the openbsd documentation is NOT great... compare it with the FreeBSD documentation which is much more comprehensive and written in a way that anyone can understand.