Any real world example of taxing super rich being detrimental

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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Football players? You cite European football players, young guys who have little wealth, but rather relatively large earnings and short careers? They're super rich, as a group? Billionaires?

Example count still zero. And it wouldn't matter for US citizens, anyway, who are taxed on earnings both foreign and domestic.

That's pathetic - you're starting to remind me of the Black Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail - one arm off, oh 'tis but a scratch, that's a tax on products not income." Look you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left; "it's just a flesh wound, professional soccer players aren't *really* rich..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
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At what, exactly? As I've pointed out, it's worse than zero sum, it's a net loss for govt in general.

Let's say filming in Calif would cost $50M in taxes, but Michigan gives a $10M break to film there. $10M just went to the film producers rather than either Calif or Michigan, which sure as hell won't stay in Michigan. Maybe some govt entity will become so desperate for jobs that they'll pay the producers to film there, huh?

Let's all race to the bottom, see what we can find...

For the great and benevolent Job Creators!

Well its more like a war between states. 50m in taxes? Thats a big fuckin film.

Lets say 20 million dollar film gets 50% tax rebate. So they spend 18 million in the state. They brought 18 million into the state that wasnt there before. It is a race to the bottom but the states are trying to suck money out of each other.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
I think it's pretty obvious that payroll taxes would decrease hiring. I dont see why personal income tax or capital taxes would.

Here you go, see the link below. As I said, there's plenty out there if you actually cared to look or had any desire to actually consider the evidence. Of course this being economics where no theory is truly falsifiable, you can simply wallow in your confirmation bias and find a Paul Krugman to dispute this and say the exact opposite.

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/kleven-landais-saez09football.pdf

Where are the lost jobs there? The high-tax countries still fill out their rosters.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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I tried to find something relevant; see below.

OECD Economics Department WP 620 (2008) - Tax and economic growth

Top marginal statutory rates mainly affect productivity

Top marginal statutory rates on labour income have an ambiguous impact on TFP via entrepreneurship by affecting risk taking by individuals. On the one hand, high top statutory income taxes reduce the post-tax income of a successful entrepreneur relative to an unsuccessful one and can reduce entrepreneurial activity and TFP growth.

On the other hand, high tax rates provide for increased risksharing with the government if potential losses can be written off against other income (tax payments), which may encourage entrepreneurial activity (Myles, 2008). However, Gentry and Hubbard (2000) suggests that the higher is the difference between the marginal tax rates when successful and unsuccessful (a measure of tax progressivity) the lower is risk-taking as the extra tax that applies to high profits is greater than the tax saving that is produced by losses, effectively reducing the strength of the risk-sharing effect.

Industry-level evidence covering a sub-set of OECD countries suggests that there is a negative relationship between top marginal personal income tax rates and the long-run level of TFP (see Box 4 for details). The magnitude of the estimated impact of a change in top personal income taxes differs across countries depending on the composition of their business sectors, increasing with the proportion of industries with structurally high entry rates.

One possible policy implication may be that countries with a large share of their industries characterised by high firm entry (or wishing to move in this direction) may gain more from lowering their top marginal tax rate than other countries. However, it is likely that some other policies and institutional settings, such as product market regulation, have a more direct impact on entrepreneurship (Scarpetta and Tressel, 2002; Brandt, 2005; Conway et al. 2006).

Additionally, the magnitude of the impact of tax reform may depend on the stance of these policies. Indeed the empirical analysis shows that the negative impact of top marginal tax rates on TFP is stronger in countries with a high level of the OECD indicator of product market regulation (PMR), suggesting complementarities between taxation and product market policies.

Capital income taxes may affect investment and entrepreneurship through savings and firms’ financing

Taxes on personal capital income may affect private savings by reducing their after-tax return. However, as discussed in Section 3.1, the effects of this on savings, and particularly on investment, are uncertain. Nonetheless, differences in the personal income tax treatment of different forms of savings can be expected to distort the allocation of savings and reduce the growth potential of the economy.

As most OECD countries do favour certain types of savings (such as owner-occupied housing, private pension funds) over others (such as bank deposits), there is scope to increase growth by reducing these distortions.

High capital gains taxes may affect both the demand for venture capital through entrepreneurs’ career choice and the supply of funds (e.g. Poterba, 1989). Since venture capital is one important source for financing high-technology firm start-ups, financial support for these start-ups may be hindered by high capital gains tax, thus lowering the potential contribution of new firm entry to TFP growth.

However, there is little empirical evidence of this link. More generally, policymakers face difficult choices in relation to capital gains taxes (see OECD, 2006c). In particular, exempting capitals gains from taxation provides opportunities for tax avoidance by transforming taxable income into tax-free capital gains, but the application of capitals gains tax can “lock-in” investments and prevent the efficient reallocation of capital because (for reasons of practical administration) capital gains are taxed on realisation. It is, therefore, unsurprising that OECD countries differ widely in their taxation of capital gains.

Overall, the paper's findings "suggest a tax and growth ranking of taxes, confirming results from earlier literature but providing a more detailed disaggregation of taxes. Corporate taxes are found to be most harmful for growth, followed by personal income taxes, and then consumption taxes. Recurrent taxes on immovable property appear to have the least impact. A revenue neutral growth-oriented tax reform would, therefore, be to shift part of the revenue base from income taxes to less distortive taxes such as recurrent taxes on immovable property or consumption."
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
South America was colonized before North America, and it came with gold and higher population that was put to work with wealth concentrated in the hands of a few.

North America colonization was later, and it wiped out the populous, hence need to import expensive slaves, and had no gold. But, North America rise to power quicker than South America is because the distribution of wealth was spread out among everyone. Poor North America colonists were given land, and then there is the homestead act that gave people opportunities.

Now, things have eroded in North America, because the wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few like the European lords, and South America of the past, hence it hampered wealth, growth and innovations.

Canada, Japan, and many advanced nations tax the wealthy income tax at a higher rate than American and we are doing just fine (and CEO vs. the average company worker payscale is narrower than the US)

IMHO, tax the wealthy class doesn't have as high of an impact as the propaganda that they are spreading.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126

If you look at the chart on page 36 it has a column for maximizing tax revenue given mobility of players, and for the highest earners the ideal marginal tax rate is 47.4% - 56.5%.

Note that it varies by country, it isn't as simple as "lowest tax rate wins".

Also note that this just supports the obvious idea, that there is some ideal rate for maximizing revenue before enough of the rich would flee to lower tax revenues.

Republicans are currently claiming any tax increases will kill jobs. It's plausible that a massive tax increase to something like 90% could do that.

The study above does nothing to support that a modest increase closer to whatever the ideal rate happens to be would make the rich flee or would kill jobs. If the revenue-maximizing rate is ~50% like it is for top soccer players then the current 15% rate on capital gains could safely be raised to 20-25% for the wealthy.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
If you look at the chart on page 36 it has a column for maximizing tax revenue given mobility of players, and for the highest earners the ideal marginal tax rate is 47.4% - 56.5%.

Note that it varies by country, it isn't as simple as "lowest tax rate wins".

Also note that this just supports the obvious idea, that there is some ideal rate for maximizing revenue before enough of the rich would flee to lower tax revenues.

Republicans are currently claiming any tax increases will kill jobs. It's plausible that a massive tax increase to something like 90% could do that.

The study above does nothing to support that a modest increase closer to whatever the ideal rate happens to be would make the rich flee or would kill jobs. If the revenue-maximizing rate is ~50% like it is for top soccer players then the current 15% rate on capital gains could safely be raised to 20-25% for the wealthy.

good post.

the church of trickle down will never go there without a fight. You cant destroy someones belief system so fast. It will take decades.
 

KeithP

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2000
5,661
199
106
The left side ignores the economic facts that Office of Management Budget has in spades. They are motivated simply by insisting their political ideology is correct and disregard anything that doesn't fit.

An argument can't be won when one side ignores reality so why is anyone trying?

-KeithP
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
If you look at the chart on page 36 it has a column for maximizing tax revenue given mobility of players, and for the highest earners the ideal marginal tax rate is 47.4% - 56.5%.

Note that it varies by country, it isn't as simple as "lowest tax rate wins".

Also note that this just supports the obvious idea, that there is some ideal rate for maximizing revenue before enough of the rich would flee to lower tax revenues.

Republicans are currently claiming any tax increases will kill jobs. It's plausible that a massive tax increase to something like 90% could do that.

The study above does nothing to support that a modest increase closer to whatever the ideal rate happens to be would make the rich flee or would kill jobs. If the revenue-maximizing rate is ~50% like it is for top soccer players then the current 15% rate on capital gains could safely be raised to 20-25% for the wealthy.

You're basically agreeing to the Laffer Curve then, which many progressives insist is completely untrue. Also, revenue maximization wasn't the original question raised by the OP, it was whether increasing taxes has a detrimental effect.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
You asked for an example. You received it.

Yet now you pretend that what you actually requested was an example that occurred in the world of make-believe; a world where - when taxes were raised - NOTHING else happened in the years before, during, or after that could possibly obfuscate the cause and effect. You want an example with no trade agreements, no wars, no banking crises, no actions by the Fed, no international monetary issues, no major legislative actions, no significant supreme court decisions, no influences of the business cycle, no major terrorist actions, no union actions, no health crises - nothing.

Yep, you're a fvcking moron.

What is with the personal attacks from you guys lately? Getting angry about Obama going to lose I guess. If Bill's tax increases balanced our budget then lets increase them to Bill's level and it should solve all our problems right? Otherwise its just another example with no merit.

There's nobody here that has shown an example of raising taxes on the rich solving the problem.. The math just doesn't work. I understand things like logic are tough for liberals to understand but seriously... 1.5 trillion - a couple hundred billion AT BEST still = 1 trillion +.

Do the math, you 'fvcking moron'.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
The left side ignores the economic facts that Office of Management Budget has in spades. They are motivated simply by insisting their political ideology is correct and disregard anything that doesn't fit.

An argument can't be won when one side ignores reality so why is anyone trying?

-KeithP

95% of what's said about liberals here is wrong or lies, I can't remember the other 5%.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
You're basically agreeing to the Laffer Curve then, which many progressives insist is completely untrue. Also, revenue maximization wasn't the original question raised by the OP, it was whether increasing taxes has a detrimental effect.

As a moderate I reject the false dilemmas of both groups of extremists. I think we need a combination of modest tax increases and large spending cuts across the board including entitlements, defense, possibly regulation if done carefully.

Also: the detrimental effect this study shows only happens above some high marginal rate (~50% for this group) so there would no [ significant ] effect from raising rates to some level below that.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
As a moderate I reject the false dilemmas of both groups of extremists. I think we need a combination of modest tax increases and large spending cuts across the board including entitlements, defense, possibly regulation if done carefully.

Also: the detrimental effect this study shows only happens above some high marginal rate (~50% for this group) so there would no [ significant ] effect from raising rates to some level below that.

I don't have any issue with saying that a moderate raise in rates for the wealthy isn't going to do major damage, but how much is "moderate" is subject to question. A small tax rise may be like getting hit with a grain of sand or small pebble, the target may even notice or might just annoy them a bit. Increase the size of the rise though and it will increasingly do more damage - you don't need to be buried under a Wile E. Coyote sized boulder for it to be bad news.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
You're basically agreeing to the Laffer Curve then, which many progressives insist is completely untrue. Also, revenue maximization wasn't the original question raised by the OP, it was whether increasing taxes has a detrimental effect.

Apparently, having the top marginal rate range from 47.4% to 56.5% would tend to steer the top soccer players to the lower tax venues. So what? Europeans, in general, don't pay taxes on income earned outside of their country of citizenship, but Americans do.

Maybe we should raise our own top marginal rates to 47.4% to be "competitive", huh? Maybe the 47.4% jurisdictions would maintain their advantage if they raised rates to 52%, or even 55%.

And it has nothing to do with the Laffer curve giggle. Soccer stars won't play less if they find themselves in a high tax jurisdiction. They'll just do their thing, smile & pay more in taxes.