any predictions on R520 vs G70

[konakona]

I was engaged in yet another PS3 vs xbox360 at one of the messageboards i am frequent on. they keep claiming PS3 will blow xbox360 out of water, but they also say sony was always ahead of microsoft and always will be in terms of hardware specs (blanket statement :beer: ) which makes them sound hardly credible.

with some quick searching at anandtech, PS3 may have a stronger showing in CPU department. but seeing how PS2 was plagued by the video performance, I figure this round will largely be decided upon the GPUs rather than the CPUs.

first of all, will the GPU in xbox360 R520 based?

what are some structural differences between the two chips? I have already seen those claimed performance figures quoting # of operations per second, but they have been doing the same thing at the PS2 launch where the numbers were blown way out of proportion. one thing i noticed was R520 has twice the number of piplelines as G70 does.

 

[imported_DaveA]

pipelines on the r500 (the gpu in the xbox360) doesnt use pipelines like we use them on the desktop currently.

 

[konakona]

sounds interesting, could you eleborate? also, feel free to bring more knowledge to the table... your input is highly appreciated

 

[imported_DaveA]

well i believe it uses the pipelines for what the particular game needs. like it can use 5 pipelines for shaders etc. im a little sketchy so i dont want to say something thats wrong

 

[Insomniak]

I'm predicting G70 will slightly edge R520. I think Unified Shader pipelines like ATi has in store are going to cost them some performance.

It's the right move to make (just like Nvidia was right to go with 32 bit precision on NV30, even though it cost them performance), and the industry will eventually go there, but not yet.

 

[fierydemise]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
I'm predicting G70 will slightly edge R520. I think Unified Shader pipelines like ATi has in store are going to cost them some performance.

I thought only the R500 was using unified shaders not the R520

 

[imported_DaveA]

Originally posted by: fierydemise

Originally posted by: Insomniak
I'm predicting G70 will slightly edge R520. I think Unified Shader pipelines like ATi has in store are going to cost them some performance.

I thought only the R500 was using unified shaders not the R520

correct i believe its going to be r600 that gives desktop users unified shaders.

 

[Pete]

Read Anandtech's frontpage article. It seems PS3's GPU, the RSX--on paper, at least--doubles the R500's performance, with two teraflops to R500's one.

Now, when the rubber meets the road....

 

[ddogg]

Like what Pete said in the previous thread...those are not 48 pipeslines, they are 48ALUS..big difference between the 2. we still dont know how many pipes the G70 or the R520 will have whether 24 or 32...everything at the moment is just based on rumors. ya i think ATI will use Unified Shader only with their R6xx models and above, might definetely cost them some performance!!
Coming to the PS3 issue, it currently looks like the PS3 has completely blown the Xbox360 out...
Nvidia once again moving the tech forward with their RSX GPU supporting 128 floating point precision :thumbsup:

 

[Sylvanas]

R520 will take the G70 IMO I've been gathering all the 'information' on the R520 for quite sometime (most are rumours though). Ati's unified shader architecture seems a good idea.

Though we wont really know until one day we fire up Anands homepage and see the first benchmark results from the R520 vs G70. The stage is set.....

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: Sylvanas
R520 will take the G70 IMO I've been gathering all the 'information' on the R520 for quite sometime (most are rumours though). Ati's unified shader architecture seems a good idea.

Though we wont really know until one day we fire up Anands homepage and see the first benchmark results from the R520 vs G70. The stage is set.....

I don't really care which one ends up being faster, I just want to be able to buy the damn things. (After seeing benchmarks of course)

 

[gunblade]

R500, the gpu in xbox360 is already followed a unified shader model. The 48 functional shader units are a pool of shader units(can do either pixel or vertex shading) that the dispatcher unit can dispatch the ops to and form a 'pipeline'.

So in that sense there is no conventional fixed pipeline in the Ati unit. It is just pool of units and are control by the arbiter and dispatcher on-demand to do the ops. Essentially, this is a very well-thought out designed to share the unified functional units. But according to D. Kirk, he wasn't convinced that it was/is a efficient design based on the varied needs of the Pixel shader unit and vertex shader unit. As a result, how efficient it is remained to be seen. I think the real challenge lies in the arbiter design and how to intelligently decompose the operations and effectively dispatch functional units in a load-balanced way in different situation.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: gunblade
R500, the gpu in xbox360 is already followed a unified shader model. The 48 functional shader units are a pool of shader units(can do either pixel or vertex shading) that the dispatcher unit can dispatch the ops to and form a 'pipeline'.

So in that sense there is no conventional fixed pipeline in the Ati unit. It is just pool of units and are control by the arbiter and dispatcher on-demand to do the ops. Essentially, this is a very well-thought out designed to share the unified functional units. But according to D. Kirk, he wasn't convinced that it was/is a efficient design based on the varied needs of the Pixel shader unit and vertex shader unit. As a result, how efficient it is remained to be seen. I think the real challenge lies in the arbiter design and how to intelligently decompose the operations and effectively dispatch functional units in a load-balanced way in different situation.

Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of latency and overhead because of this...just speculation, but I'm betting it's going to drop their numbers.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Sylvanas
R520 will take the G70 IMO I've been gathering all the 'information' on the R520 for quite sometime (most are rumours though). Ati's unified shader architecture seems a good idea.

Though we wont really know until one day we fire up Anands homepage and see the first benchmark results from the R520 vs G70. The stage is set.....

Basically we have rumours aout the r520 and nothing about G70, and as you said we'll have to wait until benches appear. (soon hopefully)

 

[RussianSensation]

Guys this is what confuses me....

G70 is supposed to come out this year and compete with R520 on a PC. Yet R500 on xbox 360 is not actually based on R520 for a PC but rather 1 generation ahead (R600 as been mentioned). The unified shader architecture and embedded DRAM is not something R520 will have. So logic tells me that R500 should be faster than R520 at least for a little while? Then how is G70 faster than R500?

Also, if we consider 48 unified arch., imagine for a second you fix it at 32/16. Now, does anyone here actually think that G70 in the fall for a PC will have 32 pipeliens and 16 vertex shaders? I doubt about the vertex shader power. Of course this is an incorrect comparison because we do not know exactly how the unified architecture works but I just dont believe that PS3 gpu is 2x faster as Pete mentioned vs. xbox 360 gpu. Nvidia's gpu runs at 550/700, ATI's 500/700. So where is the 2x performance coming from, EVEN if ATI's architecture sux, I just dont see how R520 is 2x slower than G70 when they compete with one another.... And again I mentioned that R500 is ahead of R520......

The only way any of this makes sense is if the gpu in PS3 is a much more powerful G70 than the G70 coming for a PC>>>>or Sony again BS their specs (ie. 1000x more powerful than a PC).

Thoughts?

EDIT - just found this:

Xbox 360 Graphics:
"The graphics sub-system is powered by a custom graphics chip developed by ATI Technologies. The chip sports 24 dynamically allocated pipelines with two Arithmetic Logic Units (ALUs) each, that can perform both pixel and vertex shaders. The core can execute 64 simultaneous threads on groups of 64 vertices or pixels. The ALUs can each perform one vector and one scalar operation per clock cycle, for a total of 96 shader operations per clock cycle (as opposed to 136 mentioned above for PS3). Texture loads can be done in parallel to ALU operations. At peak performance, the GPU can issue 48 billion shader operations per second. The graphics sub-system sports eDRAM buffer will be about 10MB in order to fit 720p frame-buffer inside it and apply certain effects that boost eye candy of the image, such as anti-aliasing." - Xbitlabs

R520 Graphics (same website):
"Specifications of ATI?s code-named R520 VPU are unclear at this time. Some sources suggest that the chip may have up to 32 pixel pipelines and up to 350 million transistors, which makes the processor extremely complex. However, given that a new fabrication process is to be used for the manufacturing of R520, it is unlikely that the visual processing unit will be tremendously large in terms of transistor count and complex in terms of the number of pipelines. Fabless semiconductor designers tend to balance complexity of their chips for new fabrication processes."

 

[sbuckler]

24 pipelines which are used for both pixel and vertex shaders isn't far of a 6800 GT/ultra which has 16 + 6 (including multiple alu's for each I think). Obviously xbox graphics are running at a a higher clock.
Equally the 6800 GT/utra used something like 234 million transistors. The ps3 gpu only uses 304 million. You don't get something for nothing, it can't have that much more then the 6800 because it's only got another 70 million transistors, I'm guessing 20 pixel and 8 vertex shaders. As before I think it's also running at a faster clock (550 vs 400?). It's also bound to have a few tweaks to make each pixel/vertex shader run a little better.
Both gpu's are still pretty impressive as they must be running at much lower power/heat then a 6800 ultra.
The big advantage both consoles have is you can optimise for just that gpu as opposed to the pc where the user could be using all sorts of hardware.

 

[Ronin]

My suggestion here is to wait until what we see at E3. I think you may see Dev sample results from the show splattered amongst various websites (for both cards, but certainly for the G70).

 

[MobiusPizza]

Go to gamespot E3 report
http://www.gamespot.com/e3/index.html

I HIGHLY recommend watching the KillZone Video footage
It's totally unbelievable that it's not motion pictures

 

[Ronin]

I'm just going to go ahead and see for myself. Nothing better than in person spending 3 days going through 10 halls of games and hardware.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: AnnihilatorX
Go to gamespot E3 report
http://www.gamespot.com/e3/index.html

I HIGHLY recommend watching the KillZone Video footage
It's totally unbelievable that it's not motion pictures

Jesus Christ, you're right - that made final fantasy look quaint.

I hope it gets ported to PC so a mouse can do it justice. I'm not looking forward to trying to play that with a that Batarang PS3 controller.

 

[ddogg]

Originally posted by: Ronin
My suggestion here is to wait until what we see at E3. I think you may see Dev sample results from the show splattered amongst various websites (for both cards, but certainly for the G70).

yup...thats basically the best thing to do rather than just pull out one rumor after another

 

[fstime]

R520 will have 45 pipe lines and clocked at 800/1.8 ghz GDD4.

SM 4 support.

HDR 2.0 support. Allows AA.

512MB 512 bit memory bus for maximum aa support.

AMR will be much more efficient than SLi and double your performance when a second card is added.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
R520 will have 45 pipe lines and clocked at 800/1.8 ghz GDD4.

SM 4 support.

HDR 2.0 support. Allows AA.

512MB 512 bit memory bus for maximum aa support.

AMR will be much more efficient than SLi and double your performance when a second card is added.

You cannot have 45 pipelines.... there is no such thing as any of those other things. I hope/think you were joking.

I cant wait until we have the E3 review. R520 and G70 are both supposed to be there. What is it now... 3 more days ?

-Kevin

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: ddogg

Coming to the PS3 issue, it currently looks like the PS3 has completely blown the Xbox360 out...
Nvidia once again moving the tech forward with their RSX GPU supporting 128 floating point precision :thumbsup:

I guess we will see this christmas, oh wait the ps3 won't be available. I wondered if pre paper release fud would work. :wine: I would guess that neither press conference told the complete story, but does look like console gaming is about to kill off computer gaming.

 

[Falloutboy]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
R520 will have 45 pipe lines and clocked at 800/1.8 ghz GDD4.

SM 4 support.

HDR 2.0 support. Allows AA.

512MB 512 bit memory bus for maximum aa support.

AMR will be much more efficient than SLi and double your performance when a second card is added.

And you know all this how??