Any Land Surveyors here? (need to locate property pins)

[steppinthrax]

I purchased a 1 acre property a few months ago. I recieved a location drawing at closing. It shows property pins were set on the corners. It also gives Degrees, Minutes and seconds as well as bearing (N, E, S, W). It also gives feet of each property line. On the drawing it indicates iron rods were set at each point of the property. It also gives coordinates, but in thousands. For example it shows pin 24 is set at (10015.861, 10646.883)???? My goal is to find the location of the property pins. Can I deduce the location based on this drawing?

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/hzaidi1/property/prop.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/hzaidi1/property/prop2.jpg

 

[Imp]

Know anyone with a bar detector or metal detector?

Best idea is to get a metal/bar detector, and try to match those drawings with fence lines.

Those are northings and easting coordinates - I haven't done it in a while, but they should be MTM# projected plane coordinates (google to find your city's MTM#). Regular consumer GPS is too inaccurate to find those things with.

 

[steppinthrax]

Know anyone with a bar detector or metal detector?

Best idea is to get a metal/bar detector, and try to match those drawings with fence lines.

Those are northings and easting coordinates - I haven't done it in a while, but they should be MTM# projected plane coordinates (google to find your city's MTM#). Regular consumer GPS is too inaccurate to find those things with.

I rented a metal detector, but all I found was tin cans and some broken up sheet metal. It's in a wooded area, there are no fence lines. Also people used this are to dump dirt and leaves have fell for over 20 years. So I believe the rod is covered up. What is the MTM#. I googled it, it shows up as the "State Plane Coordinate System". GPS should be inaccruate within around 10' or so?

 

[BoomerD]

If you can't find them yourself, you can always pay a surveyor to come out and locate them for you...or to locate the exact corners of your property.

I wanted to widen my driveway a few years back. I knew about where the pins were, but couldn't find them. (no metal detector) I caught a survey crew working down the road and had them come down and find the property marker for me. Cost me $20 since they were already there.

 

[kevinsbane]

What is the MTM#. I googled it, it shows up as the "State Plane Coordinate System". GPS should be inaccruate within around 10' or so?

From your scans/screenshots, there isn't really anything you can do other than keep looking. Bars can be quite a bit underneath the ground (think 0.3 m (1 ft) + below the topsoil).

Looking from the coordinates, they are in feet. Coordinates, however, can be very tricky. Do you have a full legal plan? It is quite often that local coordinate systems (ESPECIALLY legal property coordinates) do not correspond to GPS coordinates. The full legal plan (the title block especially) would be helpful to determine some more information.

It doesn't seem like you have any other equipment other than your hand-held GPS, which makes things much more difficult to do. Hand held GPS are generally only accurate to within a radius of 10 m or so (~30 ft).

 

[steppinthrax]

From your scans/screenshots, there isn't really anything you can do other than keep looking. Bars can be quite a bit underneath the ground (think 0.3 m (1 ft) + below the topsoil).

Looking from the coordinates, they are in feet. Coordinates, however, can be very tricky. Do you have a full legal plan? It is quite often that local coordinate systems (ESPECIALLY legal property coordinates) do not correspond to GPS coordinates. The full legal plan (the title block especially) would be helpful to determine some more information.

It doesn't seem like you have any other equipment other than your hand-held GPS, which makes things much more difficult to do. Hand held GPS are generally only accurate to within a radius of 10 m or so (~30 ft).

The plan I have comes from a engineering company. It is a map of the entire development. It is also signed and stapped by the state.

 

[kevinsbane]

The plan I have comes from a engineering company. It is a map of the entire development. It is also signed and stapped by the state.

If you could post that plan? A scan of only your area, while useful, does not contain all the information I'd need to give you advice on locating bars with a hand-held GPS unit.

 

[steppinthrax]

If you could post that plan? A scan of only your area, while useful, does not contain all the information I'd need to give you advice on locating bars with a hand-held GPS unit.

Thanks,

I removed some identifyable information

http://home.comcast.net/~hzaidi1/pwpimages/map.jpg

Right click and click save as (onto desktop)

 

[kevinsbane]

Thanks,

I removed some identifyable information

http://home.comcast.net/~hzaidi1/pwpimages/map.jpg

Right click and click save as (onto desktop)

See point 6 of the plan notes: "Coordinates shown hereon are based on an assumed datum."

Basically, the coordinates that are on the legal plan are useless until you find one (ideally 2) bars. Even then, the coordinates will not help you too much unless you can do a manual calibration of your handheld GPS unit (very unlikely unless you have a professional grade device).

My personal opinion, given your situation and resources available, is to find yourself a land surveyor to find the bars, if you need them for any legal purpose. Your handheld GPS, if it is not a professional grade (re: differential GPS with an accurate pole; we're talking $1000++) will be unlikely to help you altogether that much. You'd be better off with a survey chain (tape measure).

That being said,

Your best bet to finding the bars will be to start from the centre of your roundabout. I can't be sure, but it seems to me that there is a road there, no? Start from the radius point of the road, as near as you can make it. Align yourself down the centreline of the road. Measure off 55' along that line towards your lot. Try to find the two bars on the north and south side of the projected centreline. Those two bars will make it much easier to find bar 325. From there, you can try to measure out the distances to the rear lot bars. However, without any bars to set a line, you have your work cut out for you; I don't think I could find those bars without using a total station.

You mention that it's a wooded area; GPS may seem to work in wooded areas; it does not. It will degrade your already bad location accuracy. What you really need is a theodolite (few $1000) or total station (few $10000). Or a survey crew. If you really want to give your GPS a shot, you'll need to find the three survey bars along your front property line and figure out the GPS coordinates of those points as accurately as possible. That means taking 5-6 readings throughout the day; preferably in the early morning or late evening. From that, you can do a quickndirty calibration in CAD and give you some very rough coordinates for the other bars.

Final note of warning is that this plan is old, 1985. It is not impossible that the survey bars have been destroyed.

 

[Imp]

Final note of warning is that this plan is old, 1985. It is not impossible that the survey bars have been destroyed.

More likely that it's "not impossible" that some asshole dug them up, or pulled them out because they felt like it.

Honestly, don't bother with the GPS unless you have absolutely no clue if you're even in the right neighbourhood. Just look for identifiable features like trees and road lines. The consumer grade hiking GPS' I've worked with are plus or minus 10m - you're looking for 1 square inch bar, maybe?

Have you tried superimposing the survey onto a satellite map? The projected coordinates make it accurate within a few cm, or less, IIRC. The geographic coordinates (e.g. google) should be within at least a few meters.

By the way, what kind of metal detector do you have?

There are purpose-built bar detectors and others used for finding utilities/pipes that are directional (i.e. they detect stuff in a straight line). You need to approaach the dirt at an angle, then fine tune (you'll figure it out) because it's a straight bar in the ground laid vertically. FYI, I've used some detectors like that, they are FML-worthy.

 

[Imp]

Oops... MTM coordinates are only for Canada apparently (that's what my company's surveys are CAD'ed in.

So, you're probably using UTM coordinates in the great US of A. Just find your zone, then tune your GPS to it. I know Garmin handheld units will accept them, but I forget if car ones will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Transverse_Mercator_coordinate_system#UTM_zone

Then plug into this to convert to regular coordinates:

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/utm_getgp.prl

 

[DaTT]

That is not UTM coordinates either. Not sure what those coordinates are, they could be a fabricated number system the builder made up.

If you find 1 pin, and have access to a total station you can easily find the rest.

I am a land surveyor, not a legal surveyor but a topographical surveyor...but I understand the basics of legal surveying.

 

[Imp]

That is not UTM coordinates either. Not sure what those coordinates are, they could be a fabricated number system the builder made up.

Woops... Obviously I don't use that stuff enough - I loath having to convert my GIS maps to projected coords.

I'd go with an overlay. Use Powerpoint, copy your drawing into there and set the white as transparent. Now get a screenshot of a Google map and paste, overlay and try to get roads to line up.

 

[lxskllr]

Just because they said they set pins doesn't mean they did. Your best bet is a good compass, and a tape. Find 2 pins anywhere on the plat you can see between, and calibrate your compass to that. Then try to find a pin close to the one your looking for, and use the compass and tape to get close. You can get pretty close if your compass is good. You'll still have to use the metal detector though.

 

[steppinthrax]

Woops... Obviously I don't use that stuff enough - I loath having to convert my GIS maps to projected coords.

I'd go with an overlay. Use Powerpoint, copy your drawing into there and set the white as transparent. Now get a screenshot of a Google map and paste, overlay and try to get roads to line up.

How do you go about doing this. I have another map give to me when purchasing the house. It's a location drawing. It shows objects on the property in relative positions. I could scan this into the computer and overlay it using photoshop, but is this accurate? Wont the drawing be skewed? Also once I place it over google maps, how do I get exact location?

 

[lxskllr]

Location drawings are bullshit. You can't rely on them for anything.

 

[Imp]

How do you go about doing this. I have another map give to me when purchasing the house. It's a location drawing. It shows objects on the property in relative positions. I could scan this into the computer and overlay it using photoshop, but is this accurate? Wont the drawing be skewed? Also once I place it over google maps, how do I get exact location?

I was just thinking of using the outline of the surveys you already posted, then lining trying to line things up on a satellite image that might show enough features for you to figure out where things area. Keep the aspect ratio fixed so it doesn't skew - this is really rough, it's just to give you an idea of where things are if you're really lost.

I've done it so much for work, it's become second nature and pretty easy. Never had to locate a bar using it though - no, I had to use someone else's shitty sketches to do that fifteen times once.

 

[DaTT]

I was just thinking of using the outline of the surveys you already posted, then lining trying to line things up on a satellite image that might show enough features for you to figure out where things area. Keep the aspect ratio fixed so it doesn't skew - this is really rough, it's just to give you an idea of where things are if you're really lost.

I've done it so much for work, it's become second nature and pretty easy. Never had to locate a bar using it though - no, I had to use someone else's shitty sketches to do that fifteen times once.

Meh, accuracy is usually a couple meters using that method.

 

[Imp]

Meh, accuracy is usually a couple meters using that method.

Sounds like he's lost enough that a few meters wouldn't be so bad.

 

[DaTT]

Sounds like he's lost enough that a few meters wouldn't be so bad.

Good point.

 

[lxskllr]

Why do you want to know where the corner is? Just for personal satisfaction, or do you want to do something? If you want to do something, you have to get a surveyor. Anything you find in the field is nothing until it's verified.

 

[911paramedic]

I had a similar problem about a week ago, used this program.

There was a couple of hours before I could use my map and a lot of google to figure out how to get my lines to go the direction I wanted. It did work though, and I have a very nice map. It does nothing to find the actual lot area though. So, I had a surveyor come out and he wanted to charge $750 to find three points withing 50' of each other on a brand new project and I am one of the corner lots. Seemed a bit excessive.
http://www.deedplot.com/Default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

 

[kevinsbane]

That is not UTM coordinates either. Not sure what those coordinates are, they could be a fabricated number system the builder made up.

If you find 1 pin, and have access to a total station you can easily find the rest.

I am a land surveyor, not a legal surveyor but a topographical surveyor...but I understand the basics of legal surveying.

They are fabricated coordinates (local coordinate system). (see note 6 on the big legal plan)

Yes, why do you want to know the bars? Are you going to put up a fence?

911paramedic, it's an issue of liability more than anything else. If you want us to do it right, it takes about half a day to do it right. And that's if things go swimmingly well... if we need to go to the land registry to get more data to do it right, it's gonna cost you.

How do you go about doing this. I have another map give to me when purchasing the house. It's a location drawing. It shows objects on the property in relative positions. I could scan this into the computer and overlay it using photoshop, but is this accurate? Wont the drawing be skewed? Also once I place it over google maps, how do I get exact location?

Does this location drawing show setbacks? That is, distance ties to the property line?

 

[911paramedic]

911paramedic, it's an issue of liability more than anything else. If you want us to do it right, it takes about half a day to do it right. And that's if things go swimmingly well... if we need to go to the land registry to get more data to do it right, it's gonna cost you.

I totally understand the legality part, and since I have very little knowledge of how he would do it I shouldn't really say anything. I should have said, "which is a lot of cash." I had sticker shock for the most part.

Edit: He did say it would take two to three hours.

 

[Imp]

Surveying usually requires a chief and an assistant to hold the pole/dig shit. In my area, I've seen licensed, chief surveyors get paid about $40-$50/hour. An assistant is $15 to $25 depending on experience. So, $75/hour possible, then tack on travel time, "equipment rental", skills, license (biggy), and bill up your ass. And that's only the field part. Then they gotta draw by hand or AutoCAD, which is another few hours.