Any issues using Intel ES chips longterm?

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Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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ShintaiDK said:
They belong to Intel, its impossible for anyone to own one legally. If you bought one, you bought stolen property. And ES samples owners are actively pursued.

ES samples are also unsupported.

http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-030747.htm
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Interesting. So what actually is the legal agreement between e.g. OEMs / motherboard manufacturers and Intel then? Are they only paying to borrow the ES samples from Intel? Do they have to return them to Intel when no longer used?

I wonder because for some companies I have worked for where we bought ES chip samples from semiconductor manufacturers, we simply destroyed the prototype hardware they were used on when they were no longer needed (typically when we had received final chips from the semiconductor manufacturer). I'm not sure what the exact legal agreement was though, and whether we actually would have been allowed to keep them if we would have desired to. But at least I know for a fact that we did not have to return them when no longer used.
 
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Micrornd

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Mar 2, 2013
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The biggest problems with ES chips are -
1) They are not always fully 100% functional in all areas in early revisions (vt-x comes to mind in last gen early Xeon ES's)
2) OEMS generally only support ES chips in early bios on MBs.
As the bios matures or features added (or unlocked) support for ES chips is dropped and only production revisions will run in the MB (Asus Z9PE-D8 dual Xeon MB is a good example)
 
GreenChile

GreenChile

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Sep 4, 2007
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ShintaiDK said:
They belong to Intel, its impossible for anyone to own one legally. If you bought one, you bought stolen property. And ES samples owners are actively pursued.

ES samples are also unsupported.

http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-030747.htm
Click to expand...
Jeez you seem to be a little aggressive in your reply. You make it sound like the FBI will be knocking on your door if in possession of an ES. Intel hands out thousands of these ES chips to their employees every year for personal use and while technically they are loaned out, I've never heard of Intel asking for one back. They are also given to OEMs and other vendors for development reasons.

It's not a big deal for someone to be in possession of one nor is anyone actively pursuing people who are using them. How would they even know? Now if someone was selling them that would be a different story.

In answer to the OPs question, it depends on the stepping mostly. Very early samples will be unstable and generally suck. But many of the ESs out there are production steppings and should behave like their production counterparts.
 
GreenChile

GreenChile

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Sep 4, 2007
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Micrornd said:
The biggest problems with ES chips are -
2) OEMS generally only support ES chips in early bios on MBs.
As the bios matures or features added (or unlocked) support for ES chips is dropped and only production revisions will run in the MB (Asus Z9PE-D8 dual Xeon MB is a good example)
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Not sure about Xeon chips but that is not true for desktop chips. The motherboards do not know the difference.
 
Gillbot

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
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GreenChile said:
Jeez you seem to be a little aggressive in your reply. You make it sound like the FBI will be knocking on your door if in possession of an ES. Intel hands out thousands of these ES chips to their employees every year for personal use and while technically they are loaned out, I've never heard of Intel asking for one back. They are also given to OEMs and other vendors for development reasons.

It's not a big deal for someone to be in possession of one nor is anyone actively pursuing people who are using them. How would they even know? Now if someone was selling them that would be a different story.

In answer to the OPs question, it depends on the stepping mostly. Very early samples will be unstable and generally suck. But many of the ESs out there are production steppings and should behave like their production counterparts.
Click to expand...

That's not entirely true. How many do you have? Have you ever been contacted by Intel Security? I'm not talking about what google or the internet has told you, i'm talking about actual first hand experience on the matter.
 
Gillbot

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
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GreenChile said:
Not sure about Xeon chips but that is not true for desktop chips. The motherboards do not know the difference.
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Once again, do you have first hand information do debunk this? I can assure you this is entirely possible. I have been in possession of a few ES desktop samples that would not work due to them being blocked out in the BIOS, likely through the Intel Management Engine. The retail counterparts worked flawlessly while the ES versions wouldn't even POST.
 
GreenChile

GreenChile

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Sep 4, 2007
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Gillbot said:
That's not entirely true. How many do you have? Have you ever been contacted by Intel Security? I'm not talking about what google or the internet has told you, i'm talking about actual first hand experience on the matter.
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Yes I personally have half a dozen or so laying around for personal use. No I've never been contacted by Intel Security regarding my personal use of ES chips. They were all acquired legally.
 
GreenChile

GreenChile

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Sep 4, 2007
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Gillbot said:
Once again, do you have first hand information do debunk this? I can assure you this is entirely possible. I have been in possession of a few ES desktop samples that would not work due to them being blocked out in the BIOS, likely through the Intel Management Engine. The retail counterparts worked flawlessly while the ES versions wouldn't even POST.
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Every desktop computer I've built for personal use over the last 15 years has been with an ES and I've never had any issues with it. Does that qualify as first hand information?
 
Gillbot

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
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GreenChile said:
Yes I personally have half a dozen or so laying around for personal use. No I've never been contacted by Intel Security regarding my personal use of ES chips. They were all acquired legally.
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GreenChile said:
Every desktop computer I've built for personal use over the last 15 years has been with an ES and I've never had any issues with it. Does that qualify as first hand information?
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So what you are saying is that your personal experience must be the same as everyone else's? Since you have not been contacted, no one else possibly could have been? Your desktops work fine so everyone's will as well?

Interesting.....

I have been in possession of many ES samples myself over the years and I have been contacted by Intel Security to verify how I obtained them and to verify all my paperwork is legit and in place.

I also have built many systems over the years and can say that I've encountered many issues with ES chips that did not occur when I was supplied with a later revision or retail version to verify that the issue was resolved.
 
crashtech

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
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GreenChile said:
Yes I personally have half a dozen or so laying around for personal use. No I've never been contacted by Intel Security regarding my personal use of ES chips. They were all acquired legally.
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Sure would love to see a redacted scan of your agreement with Intel, then.
 
ViRGE

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
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Here's an excerpt from the Intel Documentation on Engineering Samples:

Engineering sample processors (also known as ES processors) are not intended to be offered for sale or resale to the general public. ES processors are considered "Intel Confidential" processors and are only to be used within Intel or by AUTHORIZED personnel outside of Intel for purposes of testing, evaluating, and/or pre-configuring systems. Every ES processor that is "Loaned" outside of Intel is done so under strict contractual agreements or Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA) to assure the protection of Intel's intellectual property and the unit during the time it is "Loaned" out.

ES processors are available to those who qualify for, and obtain, an NDA. An Intel® Authorized Distributor can assist with the application to obtain an NDA. There are no other means to obtain sample processors from Intel Customer Support. Engineering sample processors are designed and built like normal processors, but offer additional features for testing purposes. These processors are not packaged or labeled for sale to consumers, and may incur damage when tested by system builders.

To determine if a processor is an engineering sample, refer to the processor markings. The Q-spec (a four-digit or five-digit code) will begin with the letter 'Q' instead of the standard letter 'S' which is used for production processors. Engineering Sample processors may also have the words ES located after the Q-spec or the words INTEL CONFIDENTIAL marked on them.

Engineering samples are not supported by Intel Customer Support and are not eligible for warranty service.

If you have received an engineering sample processor from a vendor, and you would like a production processor, contact your vendor for replacement information.


Engineering sample processors from Intel are property of Intel Corporation.
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It's not our position to be concerned about where you got your ES chip, but we can't really provide support for it.

That said, crashtech and GreenChile; you need to take it to PMs. Your argument won't accomplish anything of value.
 
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Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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ShintaiDK said:
Did you read the link?

Also:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2065033
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It does not say what should happen to the ES chips when no longer used/needed.

Since the document says that the chips are to be considered as borrowed, one would assume that they eventually should have to be returned to Intel. But from what others have stated that is not the case, since some say it's ok for the OEMs to destroy the chips too if they'd like.

Normally it's not ok to destroy stuff you've borrowed from someone else. I'm not allowed to destroy a leased car for example. ;)
 
Gillbot

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
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jpiniero said:
If you bought it on eBay it wasn't acquired legally. Hell, you should assume everything on eBay is stolen goods.
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If it's being used for personal use, you've already breached the terms of the NDA anyhow. They are solely for OEM's and Manufacturers for Testing only.
 
hawtdawg

hawtdawg

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Jun 4, 2005
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I got an ES C2Q for my laptop several years ago. I had it overclocked and overvolted and running well out of the recommended temperature range during most of that time. i treated it like a desktop, so that thing was never turned off. Still works fine.
 
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Pheesh

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May 31, 2012
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I'm sure if you fire it up you can see the stepping. If it's the same stepping as the production part they are essentially identical performance and feature wise.
 
GreenChile

GreenChile

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Sep 4, 2007
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Gillbot said:
If it's being used for personal use, you've already breached the terms of the NDA anyhow. They are solely for OEM's and Manufacturers for Testing only.
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Not every NDA has the same restrictions and not every recipient of an ES is required to sign a NDA. Your one-size-fits-all approach is not realistic. How do you know the OP is not an Intel employee?

In my experience the use of ES chips is a little hit and miss. A few years ago I received an I7-990X which promptly died after tweaking the voltage just slightly. Other chips have performed rock solid for years despite being heavily OC'd. You never can be sure what you will get.
 
spat55

spat55

Senior member
Jul 2, 2013
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If you just use it and keep your gob shut who is going to know? If they found out, which would be a massive invasion of privacy I would just say someone gave it to me and I didn't know who he was, I don't know what ES stands for! Who can argue with that?
 
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